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1
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Mlotek:
To put it very simply to start,

2
00:00:26,652 --> 00:00:28,643
I think we're still
talking about "showgirls"

3
00:00:28,695 --> 00:00:31,027
because we're not done with it.

4
00:00:31,073 --> 00:00:33,314
Man: What're you going
to Vegas for? You gonna win?

5
00:00:36,411 --> 00:00:38,402
Mlotek: I don't think
we're done with it

6
00:00:38,455 --> 00:00:43,415
because I don't think we've
figured out what "showgirls"

7
00:00:43,460 --> 00:00:46,497
means as a film.

8
00:00:46,547 --> 00:00:49,835
Karlman: Cristal Connors defines
what Las Vegas is all about!

9
00:00:49,883 --> 00:00:53,296
But the way in which
we can like something

10
00:00:53,345 --> 00:00:57,679
that we know is so flawed
or so strange

11
00:00:57,724 --> 00:00:59,464
isn't finished yet.

12
00:00:59,518 --> 00:01:02,885
And one movie wears
its no-17 label proudly,

13
00:01:02,938 --> 00:01:04,428
and that's about
all it's wearing...

14
00:01:04,481 --> 00:01:06,472
A sizzling story
about strippers.

15
00:01:06,525 --> 00:01:09,983
Man ♪2: Many people say
Hollywood is going hard-core.

16
00:01:10,028 --> 00:01:12,986
Mlotek: And not only that,
but the critical response to it,

17
00:01:13,031 --> 00:01:16,148
we're not done really
understanding that either.

18
00:01:16,201 --> 00:01:19,238
The buildup for this film
was long and steady,

19
00:01:19,288 --> 00:01:22,121
but it didn't take long for
the critics to tear it down.

20
00:01:22,165 --> 00:01:24,747
“Showgirls” crossed the line
which conscience

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00:01:24,793 --> 00:01:28,081
and responsible filmmaking
should respect.

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00:01:28,130 --> 00:01:30,542
Mlotek: It was, like, reviled
and rejected

23
00:01:30,591 --> 00:01:34,175
by the arbiters of taste,
as well as audiences.

24
00:01:34,219 --> 00:01:36,926
Lousy movie. Very lousy acting.

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00:01:36,972 --> 00:01:38,052
I hated it.

26
00:01:38,098 --> 00:01:40,305
It's kind of raw,
kind of raunchy.

27
00:01:40,350 --> 00:01:41,886
She can't act.
Nice body, though.

28
00:01:41,935 --> 00:01:43,596
She belongs on
"saved by the bell."

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00:01:43,645 --> 00:01:46,227
Too much real life. Raw.

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00:01:46,273 --> 00:01:49,140
Mlotek: And it wasn't until
it was embraced as something bad

31
00:01:49,192 --> 00:01:50,728
or, like, silly...

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00:01:50,777 --> 00:01:55,111
Without further ado,
I give you "showgirls"!

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00:01:55,157 --> 00:01:56,772
Mlotek: Or a joke...

34
00:01:56,825 --> 00:01:58,941
I used to love doggy chow.

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00:01:58,994 --> 00:02:01,235
Mlotek: That it found its base,

36
00:02:01,288 --> 00:02:03,495
and in finding people
who were willing to mock it,

37
00:02:03,540 --> 00:02:05,747
it found people who were
willing to take it seriously.

38
00:02:05,792 --> 00:02:07,498
So when I went back
and started watching

39
00:02:07,544 --> 00:02:09,876
all of Paul verhoeven's
other films,

40
00:02:09,921 --> 00:02:12,913
I realized how much I had missed
but sort of picked up on.

41
00:02:12,966 --> 00:02:15,708
All of those movies
provided a framework.

42
00:02:15,761 --> 00:02:20,175
Karlman: Nomi Malone is what
Las Vegas is all about!

43
00:02:36,990 --> 00:02:38,730
It is now 16 minutes
before the hour.

44
00:02:38,784 --> 00:02:40,866
There's a movie
that's creating quite a buzz

45
00:02:40,911 --> 00:02:42,242
in Hollywood these days,

46
00:02:42,287 --> 00:02:44,824
not only because
of its racy content

47
00:02:44,873 --> 00:02:47,114
but also because its director
is hoping

48
00:02:47,167 --> 00:02:48,703
it will receive the very rating

49
00:02:48,752 --> 00:02:52,586
that usually means
box-office death... no-17.

50
00:02:52,631 --> 00:02:55,168
Ultimately, I think this movie
is about values.

51
00:02:55,217 --> 00:02:58,380
It's about moral values
and spiritual choices

52
00:02:58,428 --> 00:03:01,386
as a young 19-year-old woman
makes them.

53
00:03:01,431 --> 00:03:04,013
It's about innocence
and corruption.

54
00:03:04,059 --> 00:03:07,472
It's about the choice
not to be corrupted.

55
00:03:07,521 --> 00:03:10,308
This is a role that does not
come around that often,

56
00:03:10,357 --> 00:03:13,099
even for, let's say,
established film actresses.

57
00:03:13,151 --> 00:03:14,561
You know, they always complain

58
00:03:14,611 --> 00:03:16,381
that there aren't enough
strong women in films,

59
00:03:16,405 --> 00:03:19,397
and this so happens to be
a woman so filled with passion,

60
00:03:19,449 --> 00:03:23,943
so filled with strength
and power and sexuality

61
00:03:23,995 --> 00:03:25,360
and all these wonderful things

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00:03:25,414 --> 00:03:27,029
that I wanted
to explore her on film.

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00:03:27,082 --> 00:03:29,368
People are much more inclined
to think

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00:03:29,418 --> 00:03:31,534
that it is bad to portray sex,

65
00:03:31,586 --> 00:03:36,000
that it's nearly criminal
to portray sex,

66
00:03:36,049 --> 00:03:37,960
and, of course, I think
that's wrong, you know?

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00:03:38,009 --> 00:03:40,125
I think sexuality
is part of our life,

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00:03:40,178 --> 00:03:42,510
and we should not
be afraid of it.

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00:03:49,646 --> 00:03:52,729
Schmader:
"Showgirls" is about two men

70
00:03:52,774 --> 00:03:55,015
who maybe did a lot of cocaine

71
00:03:55,068 --> 00:03:57,605
and found themselves
drunk with power in Hollywood

72
00:03:57,654 --> 00:04:02,273
after making a shitty movie
about a lesbian ice-pick killer

73
00:04:02,325 --> 00:04:03,781
that was a huge hit,

74
00:04:03,827 --> 00:04:07,240
and they chose to deploy
all that power

75
00:04:07,289 --> 00:04:11,578
and Hollywood cachet on what
was supposed to be a drama

76
00:04:11,626 --> 00:04:15,790
about a young girl's
rise to fame in Las Vegas

77
00:04:15,839 --> 00:04:19,127
but ended up being kind of
its own documentary

78
00:04:19,176 --> 00:04:20,336
about its making.

79
00:04:20,385 --> 00:04:21,966
"What?

80
00:04:22,012 --> 00:04:25,095
This is what they really
wanted to do?"

81
00:04:25,140 --> 00:04:27,347
Mlotek:
When "showgirls" was released,

82
00:04:27,392 --> 00:04:30,976
I was way too young
to really know anything

83
00:04:31,021 --> 00:04:35,139
except what I was gleaning
from reading the newspapers

84
00:04:35,192 --> 00:04:38,309
or the magazines,
and so I had the sensibility

85
00:04:38,361 --> 00:04:41,524
that there were a lot of movies
in theaters about sex

86
00:04:41,573 --> 00:04:43,484
and why it was bad or dangerous.

87
00:04:43,533 --> 00:04:46,320
At the same time, I was seeing

88
00:04:46,369 --> 00:04:48,325
the same things play out
in real life.

89
00:04:48,371 --> 00:04:52,865
Schmader: I think 1995
was a pretty fraught moment

90
00:04:52,918 --> 00:04:55,534
for a movie like this.

91
00:04:57,631 --> 00:05:00,373
Woman: Paul verhoeven and
Joe eszterhas teamed up again,

92
00:05:00,425 --> 00:05:05,010
and this time they've made the
most expensive no-17 film ever.

93
00:05:05,055 --> 00:05:07,262
Man: "'Showgirls' is sleazy
and forgettable,

94
00:05:07,307 --> 00:05:09,798
a story about
a hyperactive eyeliner junkie

95
00:05:09,851 --> 00:05:11,637
out to rule the world."

96
00:05:11,686 --> 00:05:13,414
Schmader: "Showgirls"
is the type of bad movie

97
00:05:13,438 --> 00:05:15,019
that inspires bad reviews

98
00:05:15,065 --> 00:05:17,351
that become kind of
comic set pieces of their own

99
00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,892
because they just
inspire critics to this flourish

100
00:05:20,946 --> 00:05:23,528
of explaining
exactly what's terrible.

101
00:05:23,573 --> 00:05:26,235
Woman: "The filmmaker's
incessant talk about vision,

102
00:05:26,284 --> 00:05:28,696
artistry,
and honest self-expression

103
00:05:28,745 --> 00:05:31,612
lead one to expect
a sexually explicit biopic

104
00:05:31,665 --> 00:05:33,496
about the Dalai Lama.”

105
00:05:33,542 --> 00:05:35,248
Man: "We don't blame verhoeven,

106
00:05:35,293 --> 00:05:38,376
the director of two sleek,
inventive Hollywood fantasies,

107
00:05:38,421 --> 00:05:41,288
'robocop' and "total recall, '
for making this movie.

108
00:05:41,341 --> 00:05:45,550
The real culprit is eszterhas,
swami of the high concept."

109
00:05:45,595 --> 00:05:47,381
Woman: "Elizabeth berkley,
once a sitcom kid

110
00:05:47,430 --> 00:05:50,388
on TV's 'saved by the bell, '
plays nomi Malone,

111
00:05:50,433 --> 00:05:54,267
a tarty blonde with the brains
of an appliance bulb."

112
00:05:54,312 --> 00:05:57,224
Man: "When she's not being nude,
unpleasant or both,

113
00:05:57,274 --> 00:06:00,232
berkley tries hard
to act soft and kind,

114
00:06:00,277 --> 00:06:02,689
but she's about as convincing
as Joan Crawford.”

115
00:06:02,737 --> 00:06:05,444
Siskel.: It's not sexy at all,
and she's not sexy.

116
00:06:05,490 --> 00:06:07,481
She's hard around the face.

117
00:06:07,534 --> 00:06:09,262
I didn't think she was
particularly appealing.

118
00:06:09,286 --> 00:06:11,055
I thought the other woman
was more attractive.

119
00:06:11,079 --> 00:06:12,598
- Gina gershon, yeah.
- Yeah, more attractive.

120
00:06:12,622 --> 00:06:14,308
So I don't think
they have an attractive star.

121
00:06:14,332 --> 00:06:16,143
They don't do anything original
in the screenplay at all.

122
00:06:16,167 --> 00:06:17,953
I didn't care for the film.

123
00:06:18,003 --> 00:06:20,369
Woman: "If verhoeven hadn't
proven that he was once capable

124
00:06:20,422 --> 00:06:22,708
of making great movies,
this piece of masturbation

125
00:06:22,757 --> 00:06:24,793
probably wouldn't be
so hard to take.”

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00:06:24,843 --> 00:06:27,129
Woman ♪2: "When a group
of chimps get loose

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00:06:27,178 --> 00:06:29,920
in the showgirls' dressing room
and all they do is defecate,

128
00:06:29,973 --> 00:06:33,932
the film enjoys a rare moment
of good taste."

129
00:06:33,977 --> 00:06:35,454
Let me guess.
Worst movie... "Showgirls."

130
00:06:35,478 --> 00:06:37,264
- "Showgirls,” you got it.
- Good guess.

131
00:06:37,314 --> 00:06:39,417
- That was kind of a no-brainer.
- You've been watching, huh?

132
00:06:39,441 --> 00:06:41,602
Woman:
"Showgirls" was also awarded

133
00:06:41,651 --> 00:06:45,860
worst actress, screenplay,
director and even worst song.

134
00:06:45,906 --> 00:06:48,113
"Showgirls"!

135
00:06:48,158 --> 00:06:53,528
Worst picture of the decade
is "showgirls"!

136
00:06:53,580 --> 00:06:56,322
Mlotek: Ouch.

137
00:07:06,718 --> 00:07:10,427
Schmader: The first time I saw
"showgirls" was in 1999,

138
00:07:10,472 --> 00:07:15,011
and it was late because at
the time of its release in '95,

139
00:07:15,060 --> 00:07:16,495
it was just this garbage-y,
misogynist movie

140
00:07:16,519 --> 00:07:18,180
I would never go see.

141
00:07:18,229 --> 00:07:22,142
And in 1999,
my best friend mindy called,

142
00:07:22,192 --> 00:07:25,275
and mindy is, like, the key
art recommender of my life.

143
00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,311
She was the one in high school
who was like,

144
00:07:27,364 --> 00:07:28,854
"listen to
the velvet underground.

145
00:07:28,907 --> 00:07:29,862
Read Margaret atwood."

146
00:07:29,908 --> 00:07:32,399
And in 1999, she called and said

147
00:07:32,452 --> 00:07:34,488
that she had
just seen "showgirls"

148
00:07:34,537 --> 00:07:37,779
and it was crucial that I rent
it and watch it immediately.

149
00:07:37,832 --> 00:07:40,323
It opens with nomi,
who is hitchhiking

150
00:07:40,377 --> 00:07:45,497
with a very, very large suitcase
and rebellious leather jacket.

151
00:07:45,548 --> 00:07:48,335
And even the way
she holds her thumb

152
00:07:48,385 --> 00:07:51,001
is like a martian came to earth

153
00:07:51,054 --> 00:07:53,716
and looked up "hitchhiking"
in a dictionary

154
00:07:53,765 --> 00:07:56,757
and then tried to do it.

155
00:07:56,810 --> 00:07:58,425
Within, like,
the first six minutes,

156
00:07:58,478 --> 00:08:01,140
I had so many questions.

157
00:08:02,357 --> 00:08:04,689
You could sit a little bit
closer if you want.

158
00:08:06,736 --> 00:08:08,021
It was a bad idea.

159
00:08:08,071 --> 00:08:09,277
Chill, okay?

160
00:08:09,322 --> 00:08:10,903
I'm chill.

161
00:08:10,949 --> 00:08:12,259
Schmader:
This is the first of nomi

162
00:08:12,283 --> 00:08:13,864
having kind of bizarre responses

163
00:08:13,910 --> 00:08:15,901
to people who are just trying
to give her a hand.

164
00:08:15,954 --> 00:08:17,444
Back off, motherfucker!

165
00:08:18,581 --> 00:08:19,536
Hey. Fuck off!

166
00:08:19,582 --> 00:08:20,742
Whoa, sorry.

167
00:08:20,792 --> 00:08:21,792
Where are you from?

168
00:08:23,878 --> 00:08:25,789
Different places.

169
00:08:25,839 --> 00:08:28,330
Schmader: Like, nothing can be
small or boring.

170
00:08:28,383 --> 00:08:30,874
Like, why touch something
you can kick?

171
00:08:30,927 --> 00:08:32,633
Hey! Be nice.

172
00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:34,510
Get your hands off me!

173
00:08:34,556 --> 00:08:36,217
Listen.
You're getting $1,000 for this.

174
00:08:36,266 --> 00:08:38,928
Yeah, for this. This!

175
00:08:38,977 --> 00:08:40,308
I'll just pull on over.

176
00:08:42,439 --> 00:08:44,521
Schmader: Why delicately
pull to the side of the road

177
00:08:44,566 --> 00:08:47,148
when you can actually maybe
cause a entire freeway pileup?

178
00:08:47,193 --> 00:08:48,683
All right?

179
00:08:48,737 --> 00:08:50,978
Fuck! The fucker left!

180
00:08:51,031 --> 00:08:52,567
That's my car!

181
00:08:52,615 --> 00:08:54,446
I said that's my car! Stop it.

182
00:08:54,492 --> 00:08:56,153
I want my fucking suitcase!

183
00:08:56,202 --> 00:08:57,908
Get the fuck off my car!

184
00:09:00,165 --> 00:09:02,247
Here's the stomach.

185
00:09:15,263 --> 00:09:17,345
Schmader: You can't look away
from "showgirls."

186
00:09:17,390 --> 00:09:20,223
You'll miss something huge,
like a car crash or a vomit.

187
00:09:20,268 --> 00:09:21,849
Hey. Leave me alone!

188
00:09:21,895 --> 00:09:22,975
Hey!

189
00:09:28,485 --> 00:09:30,441
Schmader: Molly saves her life
in a split second

190
00:09:30,487 --> 00:09:32,944
from being crushed by a car.

191
00:09:32,989 --> 00:09:35,025
The love theme comes in,

192
00:09:35,075 --> 00:09:38,192
and you can't fucking believe
they're trying to sell us this,

193
00:09:38,244 --> 00:09:40,405
of, like, "this is the movie?

194
00:09:40,455 --> 00:09:45,245
They're spiritual friends now?"

195
00:09:45,293 --> 00:09:49,161
The first six minutes
made mindy's point clear.

196
00:09:49,214 --> 00:09:50,670
Okay, yes, it's a failed movie.

197
00:09:50,715 --> 00:09:52,751
It's misogynist. It's sexist.

198
00:09:52,801 --> 00:09:54,917
It's really embarrassing
and terribly written.

199
00:09:54,969 --> 00:09:57,301
But it adds up to something,

200
00:09:57,347 --> 00:09:59,588
a type of comedy I don't think
you can make on purpose

201
00:09:59,641 --> 00:10:02,303
which makes it very rare
and valuable.

202
00:10:02,352 --> 00:10:05,389
Must be weird not having
anybody come on you.

203
00:10:05,438 --> 00:10:07,053
Schmader: Yeah,
and I immediately wanted

204
00:10:07,107 --> 00:10:08,313
to watch it with other people.

205
00:10:08,358 --> 00:10:09,939
That was the thing,
was the kind of,

206
00:10:09,984 --> 00:10:11,629
"what the fuck?" Moments,
where you're like,

207
00:10:11,653 --> 00:10:14,565
"did I really hear that?
Did I really see that?"

208
00:10:14,614 --> 00:10:17,777
If you knew the backstory,
a little bit of the dreams

209
00:10:17,826 --> 00:10:19,316
for what it was meant to be,

210
00:10:19,369 --> 00:10:23,237
it just made it
the most poignant comedy.

211
00:10:23,289 --> 00:10:25,245
I don't know how good you are,
darling,

212
00:10:25,291 --> 00:10:27,532
and I don't know
what it is you're good at,

213
00:10:27,585 --> 00:10:30,497
but if it's at the cheetah,
it's not dancing.

214
00:10:30,547 --> 00:10:31,878
I know that much.

215
00:10:33,424 --> 00:10:35,380
You don't know shit!

216
00:10:40,807 --> 00:10:43,173
I don't think it's funny.

217
00:10:43,226 --> 00:10:44,762
I don't think it's funny!

218
00:10:45,854 --> 00:10:47,414
Schmader: When I first
screened it for friends,

219
00:10:47,438 --> 00:10:48,582
none of them had seen it before.

220
00:10:48,606 --> 00:10:49,721
They'd all heard about it.

221
00:10:49,774 --> 00:10:51,435
And one of them was on the board

222
00:10:51,484 --> 00:10:52,690
of northwest film forum,

223
00:10:52,735 --> 00:10:54,145
which is our independent
cinema here

224
00:10:54,195 --> 00:10:57,232
and pitched me doing
a hosted screening there.

225
00:10:57,282 --> 00:10:59,989
And I did one night,
and it worked.

226
00:11:00,034 --> 00:11:01,319
Like, the audience got into it,

227
00:11:01,369 --> 00:11:02,950
and they booked me
for another night,

228
00:11:02,996 --> 00:11:05,362
and then there was a line
around the block.

229
00:11:05,415 --> 00:11:07,656
And that's how the first public

230
00:11:07,709 --> 00:11:10,826
making-fun-of-"showgirls™
screening happened.

231
00:11:11,963 --> 00:11:13,544
Moss: Line them up.

232
00:11:17,093 --> 00:11:19,209
Okay, show me your tits.

233
00:11:21,097 --> 00:11:23,133
I got a topless show,
for Christ sakes!

234
00:11:23,183 --> 00:11:25,299
Let me see your tits.

235
00:11:25,351 --> 00:11:28,058
Nayman: I mean, it was an
easy target, and, you know,

236
00:11:28,104 --> 00:11:29,844
I'm always really wary
of critics

237
00:11:29,898 --> 00:11:31,889
that think that
they're shooting bull's-eyes

238
00:11:31,941 --> 00:11:34,728
when the target is that big.

239
00:11:34,777 --> 00:11:37,564
The angles that people tried
to hit it from

240
00:11:37,614 --> 00:11:40,481
were pretty safe
and pretty lazy.

241
00:11:40,533 --> 00:11:42,023
Very nice.

242
00:11:42,076 --> 00:11:43,941
Nayman:
"Showgirls" is also signaling

243
00:11:43,995 --> 00:11:45,781
to fans of Paul verhoeven,

244
00:11:45,830 --> 00:11:48,071
you know, that it's like
his other films,

245
00:11:48,124 --> 00:11:51,161
that it takes
that same perspective.

246
00:11:56,132 --> 00:11:57,747
My first viewing of “showgirls”

247
00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,166
was, on one level,
pretty typical

248
00:12:00,220 --> 00:12:02,506
which is that
I was a 14-year-old boy

249
00:12:02,555 --> 00:12:04,637
when it came out,
so I wanted to see it.

250
00:12:04,682 --> 00:12:06,547
But I think what was atypical
about that

251
00:12:06,601 --> 00:12:09,138
is I was mostly interested
that it had gotten zero stars

252
00:12:09,187 --> 00:12:10,597
in the globe and mail,

253
00:12:10,647 --> 00:12:12,558
and I did remember reading
that, you know,

254
00:12:12,607 --> 00:12:14,518
Friday morning newspaper

255
00:12:14,567 --> 00:12:17,058
at the breakfast table
with my parents.

256
00:12:18,488 --> 00:12:21,321
The critics at the time
who panned it,

257
00:12:21,366 --> 00:12:24,699
I think, on one level
it's understandable

258
00:12:24,744 --> 00:12:27,952
because there are aspects
of the story

259
00:12:27,997 --> 00:12:30,113
and the characters
and the dialogue

260
00:12:30,166 --> 00:12:33,658
and just the dramaturgy of it
that are outrageous

261
00:12:33,711 --> 00:12:36,999
or that are excessive
or that are sort of silly.

262
00:12:37,048 --> 00:12:39,460
I never had a dress like that.

263
00:12:41,511 --> 00:12:43,422
It'll look great on me.

264
00:12:47,058 --> 00:12:48,298
Won't it?

265
00:12:49,185 --> 00:12:50,595
Yeah.

266
00:12:50,645 --> 00:12:53,182
Nayman: Where I think
the initial reviews

267
00:12:53,231 --> 00:12:55,643
reveal themselves
to be pretty disingenuous

268
00:12:55,692 --> 00:12:59,150
and where I start to get mad
is when you read people say,

269
00:12:59,195 --> 00:13:02,187
"well, and top of all this, god,
it's so badly made.

270
00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:03,776
Who edited this thing, you know?

271
00:13:03,825 --> 00:13:07,067
Why is the film so ugly?
Where's verhoeven's craft gone?"

272
00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:08,656
And it's like,
"well, demonstrably,

273
00:13:08,705 --> 00:13:10,036
you're a fucking moron."

274
00:13:12,959 --> 00:13:15,826
- Ooh, what do you think?
- Oh, my goodness.

275
00:13:15,878 --> 00:13:17,243
Mm-hmm.

276
00:13:17,297 --> 00:13:19,709
Nayman: It is gorgeous
wide-screen movie.

277
00:13:19,757 --> 00:13:22,373
There's wit not just
in the choreography,

278
00:13:22,427 --> 00:13:26,340
but in even just
the different backdrops

279
00:13:26,389 --> 00:13:28,846
of the production numbers, the
way that it moves from like...

280
00:13:28,891 --> 00:13:30,722
At the stardust,
it moves from, like,

281
00:13:30,768 --> 00:13:33,726
a biblical spectacular,
so it's like Cecil b. Demille,

282
00:13:33,771 --> 00:13:37,480
into the biker stuff,
you know, into busby Berkeley.

283
00:13:37,525 --> 00:13:40,938
It's like a history of musicals
and a history of exploitation.

284
00:13:44,699 --> 00:13:48,908
It has these wonderfully
expressionist images,

285
00:13:48,953 --> 00:13:54,448
like the death's head sitting
over Gina gershon's shoulder...

286
00:13:54,500 --> 00:13:56,707
Miss Connors, how did you feel
about the show tonight?

287
00:13:56,753 --> 00:13:59,415
I think it's the best show
I've ever been in.

288
00:13:59,464 --> 00:14:01,671
I only hope I can do it justice.

289
00:14:01,716 --> 00:14:04,799
Nayman: Or Kyle maclachlan
having that evil cellphone call

290
00:14:04,844 --> 00:14:06,709
against, like,
this volcano with this,

291
00:14:06,763 --> 00:14:08,594
you know, lava spewing
in the background.

292
00:14:08,639 --> 00:14:11,676
Phil, you dumb fuck.
Get back up here, would you?

293
00:14:11,726 --> 00:14:14,138
I know. 1 know.

294
00:14:14,187 --> 00:14:16,894
Nayman: This stuff
is very accomplished

295
00:14:16,939 --> 00:14:20,431
and very clever
and very intentional.

296
00:14:20,485 --> 00:14:22,942
In terms of
the three claims in my book,

297
00:14:22,987 --> 00:14:25,854
you would probably put
the "piece of shit” claim first

298
00:14:25,907 --> 00:14:27,943
'cause that's been
the order of reception,

299
00:14:27,992 --> 00:14:29,573
the film that is a piece of shit

300
00:14:29,619 --> 00:14:32,986
that sort of gets reclaimed
as a stealth masterpiece,

301
00:14:33,039 --> 00:14:36,281
not the masterpiece that
over time reveals itself

302
00:14:36,334 --> 00:14:38,199
to be a piece of shit
like "Forrest Gump"

303
00:14:38,252 --> 00:14:41,619
or "American beauty"
or other really terrible movies

304
00:14:41,672 --> 00:14:43,628
that, you know,
it takes some time for people

305
00:14:43,674 --> 00:14:46,837
to catch up to how evil
and insidious they are.

306
00:14:46,886 --> 00:14:48,797
You know,
"showgirls" is the reverse.

307
00:14:48,846 --> 00:14:51,053
You got something wrong
with your nipples?

308
00:14:51,099 --> 00:14:52,509
- No.
- They're not sticking up.

309
00:14:52,558 --> 00:14:54,389
Stick them up. What?

310
00:14:54,435 --> 00:14:57,051
Play with them a little bit.

311
00:14:57,105 --> 00:15:01,314
Nayman: It is tremendously
and unapologetically tacky...

312
00:15:01,359 --> 00:15:03,099
Pinch them a little.

313
00:15:03,152 --> 00:15:05,108
You want me to do it for you?
I'll do it.

314
00:15:05,154 --> 00:15:07,395
Nayman:
And maybe on some level bad.

315
00:15:07,448 --> 00:15:09,905
Here, put some ice on them.

316
00:15:09,951 --> 00:15:13,660
Nayman: But it is also, in ways
that don't cancel that out,

317
00:15:13,704 --> 00:15:17,288
they don't negate it,
it's also very good

318
00:15:17,333 --> 00:15:21,622
and clearly the work
of somebody who,

319
00:15:21,671 --> 00:15:25,004
at least the director,
knows what he's doing,

320
00:15:25,049 --> 00:15:28,166
and what he's doing
is interesting.

321
00:15:30,263 --> 00:15:32,800
Hey. What are you doing here?

322
00:15:32,849 --> 00:15:34,464
I just did an audition.

323
00:15:34,517 --> 00:15:37,008
Nayman:
The "masterpiece of shit"

324
00:15:37,061 --> 00:15:40,269
is that idea
that it really is both at once.

325
00:15:41,983 --> 00:15:43,723
And I would even go so far
as to say

326
00:15:43,776 --> 00:15:46,188
that the ways
that they didn't get it

327
00:15:50,158 --> 00:15:53,195
or bounces off of the stuff
that's good on purpose

328
00:15:53,244 --> 00:15:57,783
and makes the film completely
singular, like nothing else.

329
00:16:01,294 --> 00:16:02,625
The number of scenes

330
00:16:02,670 --> 00:16:04,501
that involve mirrors
in the background,

331
00:16:04,547 --> 00:16:06,458
mirrors as part
of the production design,

332
00:16:06,507 --> 00:16:09,465
I mean, there's just a lot
of visual possibilities there,

333
00:16:09,510 --> 00:16:10,988
and this is a movie
that's about characters

334
00:16:11,012 --> 00:16:12,343
whose appearance matters.

335
00:16:12,388 --> 00:16:14,674
There's a certain amount
of narcissism.

336
00:16:14,724 --> 00:16:16,764
You know, I think that
the cheetah and the stardust,

337
00:16:16,809 --> 00:16:19,551
to some extent,
are mirror images of each other

338
00:16:19,604 --> 00:16:21,390
or distorted mirror images
of each other.

339
00:16:21,439 --> 00:16:24,522
The opening scene and the
closing scene mirror each other.

340
00:16:24,567 --> 00:16:27,354
I mean, there's a lot
of really kind of deep-core

341
00:16:27,403 --> 00:16:29,610
structuring devices in the film.

342
00:16:29,655 --> 00:16:30,861
There's also, of course,

343
00:16:30,907 --> 00:16:33,489
the doubling
of different characters,

344
00:16:33,534 --> 00:16:36,401
particularly, you know,
nomi and cristal.

345
00:16:36,454 --> 00:16:40,038
Miss Malone, how did you feel
about the show tonight?

346
00:16:40,082 --> 00:16:43,370
I just hope that I can be
as good as the show.

347
00:16:43,419 --> 00:16:45,330
Nayman:
Whether nomi is the next cristal

348
00:16:45,379 --> 00:16:47,836
or cristal used to be nomi

349
00:16:47,882 --> 00:16:50,624
or the two of them, you know,
spend a lot of the film kind of,

350
00:16:50,676 --> 00:16:53,509
you know, face-to-face,
measuring each other up,

351
00:16:53,554 --> 00:16:55,090
you know, nomi copying cristal.

352
00:16:57,308 --> 00:17:00,391
But I also think that the mirror
works in "showgirls,"

353
00:17:00,436 --> 00:17:02,176
if you believe
verhoeven's intent,

354
00:17:02,230 --> 00:17:06,314
to hold a mirror up to society
and to reflect it.

355
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,600
I don't think that mgm thought
they were gonna fill

356
00:17:08,653 --> 00:17:11,360
3,000 theaters of people
going to see "showgirls"

357
00:17:11,405 --> 00:17:13,270
to have reality
reflected back at them.

358
00:17:13,324 --> 00:17:15,315
It's sort of supposed to be
an escape,

359
00:17:15,368 --> 00:17:20,283
or rather you can't escape from
the reality that it's about.

360
00:17:25,336 --> 00:17:26,701
Shulgasser-Parker:
Really? Mirrors?

361
00:17:26,754 --> 00:17:29,666
Is that the big greatness
of this?

362
00:17:29,715 --> 00:17:31,831
You know, mirrors? Really?

363
00:17:31,884 --> 00:17:33,545
Are the mirrors here better,

364
00:17:33,594 --> 00:17:35,676
or is the camera
spinning around 360,

365
00:17:35,721 --> 00:17:40,886
is that better than "the lady
from shanghai” with mirrors?

366
00:17:40,935 --> 00:17:43,051
In all the years
that I've been a critic,

367
00:17:43,104 --> 00:17:45,095
every time I see a bad movie,

368
00:17:45,147 --> 00:17:46,933
I try to give it
the benefit of the doubt.

369
00:17:46,983 --> 00:17:49,349
And I always wondered, you know,

370
00:17:49,402 --> 00:17:52,769
"how do you sometimes get
a movie with a great director,

371
00:17:52,822 --> 00:17:56,280
great cast, an okay writer,

372
00:17:56,325 --> 00:17:59,817
and they come up
with something terrible?"

373
00:17:59,870 --> 00:18:03,454
It's not on my list
of worst movies ever

374
00:18:03,499 --> 00:18:06,366
for exactly that reason,
that it is so watchable,

375
00:18:06,419 --> 00:18:09,001
but it's up there with my list
of the most pathetic

376
00:18:09,046 --> 00:18:12,880
in that the filmmakers
themselves seem to view it now,

377
00:18:12,925 --> 00:18:16,417
based on recent interviews
I've read, as misunderstood

378
00:18:16,470 --> 00:18:20,679
or full of overlooked virtue
or value.

379
00:18:22,226 --> 00:18:23,762
Truth is, "showgirls" is...

380
00:18:23,811 --> 00:18:27,645
It's drearily pedestrian
and mainstream.

381
00:18:27,690 --> 00:18:30,181
It's an insipid kind of failure.

382
00:18:30,234 --> 00:18:33,351
It pretends that the open
display of body parts and sex

383
00:18:33,404 --> 00:18:34,894
makes it somehow daring,

384
00:18:34,947 --> 00:18:36,812
when at its
shallow little heart,

385
00:18:36,866 --> 00:18:40,734
it's nothing more than
a cliché-ridden remake.

386
00:18:44,123 --> 00:18:47,331
In its basic structure,
it's as formulaic

387
00:18:47,376 --> 00:18:49,788
as the usual
kind of low-grade movies

388
00:18:51,505 --> 00:18:53,086
that's what you've got.

389
00:18:53,132 --> 00:18:54,463
But, you know, then you have

390
00:18:54,508 --> 00:18:56,294
this amazing director,
verhoeven,

391
00:18:56,344 --> 00:18:58,960
who really knows
how to make a film.

392
00:19:01,599 --> 00:19:04,591
Nayman: Paul verhoeven
basically invented the idea

393
00:19:04,644 --> 00:19:06,305
of a Dutch
commercial art cinema.

394
00:19:06,354 --> 00:19:08,845
You know, his biography
is really fascinating

395
00:19:08,898 --> 00:19:13,688
in that he almost ended up an
academic based on his studies,

396
00:19:13,736 --> 00:19:16,569
and then he almost ended up
a deeply religious guy

397
00:19:16,614 --> 00:19:19,481
based on this early flirtation
he had with the church,

398
00:19:19,533 --> 00:19:21,069
and that ended.

399
00:19:21,118 --> 00:19:24,110
And so verhoeven, who, you know,
came out of the box

400
00:19:24,163 --> 00:19:28,532
with these two very sort of
bohemian sex comedies,

401
00:19:28,584 --> 00:19:31,291
"business is business"
and then "turkish delight,"

402
00:19:31,337 --> 00:19:33,828
he was sort of
a breath of fresh air

403
00:19:33,881 --> 00:19:36,372
and also a bit scary, I think.

404
00:19:36,425 --> 00:19:38,916
You know, the Netherlands,
in my research, is not...

405
00:19:38,969 --> 00:19:42,177
It's not that it's necessarily
a hostile or a repressive place,

406
00:19:42,223 --> 00:19:44,885
but there's a veneer
of kind of grudging tolerance

407
00:19:44,934 --> 00:19:47,926
to a lot of their art
and to a lot of their culture,

408
00:19:47,978 --> 00:19:51,186
and I think verhoeven pushed
that standard for tolerance.

409
00:19:51,232 --> 00:19:54,975
A film like "turkish delight”
is not gonna pass unnoticed,

410
00:19:55,027 --> 00:19:56,312
and it didn't.

411
00:19:56,362 --> 00:19:58,398
I mean,
it got an Oscar nomination,

412
00:19:58,447 --> 00:20:00,813
and it only lost
because francois truffaut

413
00:20:00,866 --> 00:20:03,278
made "day for night" that year.

414
00:20:08,499 --> 00:20:11,707
"Spetters,” which is about
three young men

415
00:20:11,752 --> 00:20:13,492
who want to be
motorcycle-racing stars,

416
00:20:13,546 --> 00:20:15,662
which is the movie
that essentially got him

417
00:20:15,715 --> 00:20:18,627
kicked out of the Netherlands
because people found

418
00:20:18,676 --> 00:20:20,667
the violence and the homophobia

419
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,928
and the disgust of it
overwhelming,

420
00:20:23,973 --> 00:20:25,634
partially because
they didn't like

421
00:20:25,683 --> 00:20:28,265
the picture of the country
that it was painting...

422
00:20:28,310 --> 00:20:30,471
Not a film
that is itself homophobic,

423
00:20:30,521 --> 00:20:32,261
but a film
that is about homophobia.

424
00:20:42,825 --> 00:20:46,989
Verhoeven's Dutch films
are the work of somebody

425
00:20:47,037 --> 00:20:49,744
who's really working

426
00:20:49,790 --> 00:20:53,157
in a free, liberated,
very European way,

427
00:20:53,210 --> 00:20:56,623
and then eventually he pushes
that as far as it can go...

428
00:20:58,799 --> 00:21:01,586
And gets kind of exiled
to Hollywood.

429
00:21:01,635 --> 00:21:05,002
It's funny that for a lot
of European filmmakers,

430
00:21:05,055 --> 00:21:07,011
America is where
you're working to end up.

431
00:21:07,057 --> 00:21:11,642
In verhoeven's case, it's semi
where he kind of got sent to

432
00:21:11,687 --> 00:21:13,598
or where they sort of
kicked him out to.

433
00:21:13,647 --> 00:21:16,889
And then you have
this whole second cycle,

434
00:21:16,942 --> 00:21:19,149
American movies
that become influential

435
00:21:19,195 --> 00:21:20,981
in a whole bunch of other ways,

436
00:21:21,030 --> 00:21:23,362
which is that
if you're writing a history

437
00:21:23,407 --> 00:21:25,739
of American blockbuster films,

438
00:21:25,785 --> 00:21:28,652
okay, yes, Steven Spielberg
gets his own chapter,

439
00:21:28,704 --> 00:21:30,786
and James Cameron
gets his own chapter,

440
00:21:30,831 --> 00:21:34,540
but the more fun chapter
is the verhoeven chapter.

441
00:21:34,585 --> 00:21:36,166
Sconce: Even in the mid-'90s,

442
00:21:36,212 --> 00:21:38,828
to see a film that was
just sort of that out there

443
00:21:38,881 --> 00:21:40,462
and unlike anything else

444
00:21:40,508 --> 00:21:43,500
that the studios
were putting money into

445
00:21:43,552 --> 00:21:46,168
was really kind of nice,
really kind of shocking, right?

446
00:21:46,222 --> 00:21:48,713
And the same thing was said
about "starship troopers."

447
00:21:48,766 --> 00:21:51,428
During the making of the film,
somebody congratulated him

448
00:21:51,477 --> 00:21:54,810
on making a $120 million
art film, right?

449
00:21:54,855 --> 00:21:58,143
This is a narrative
that Hollywood historians

450
00:21:58,192 --> 00:22:02,526
and film buffs love, which is
the story of the heroic director

451
00:22:02,571 --> 00:22:05,813
who finds a way to make the film
they really want to make

452
00:22:05,866 --> 00:22:09,074
and fools cretinous,
tasteless producers

453
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,826
who have no interest
in the art form whatsoever,

454
00:22:11,872 --> 00:22:13,683
versus the directors
who are these great auteurs

455
00:22:13,707 --> 00:22:15,288
who want to make movies,

456
00:22:15,334 --> 00:22:17,354
and that's another thing
that makes "starship troopers"

457
00:22:17,378 --> 00:22:19,289
and "showgirls"
so special, I think,

458
00:22:19,338 --> 00:22:22,250
is you do almost feel like
a prank was pulled

459
00:22:22,299 --> 00:22:24,005
on the studios
that released those.

460
00:22:24,051 --> 00:22:28,169
They got these very European
avant-garde takes

461
00:22:28,222 --> 00:22:31,589
on American culture
through sex and through war

462
00:22:31,642 --> 00:22:35,009
that were probably not
what they were counting on.

463
00:22:35,062 --> 00:22:39,146
Enroll in the federal service
for not less than two years

464
00:22:39,191 --> 00:22:42,228
and as much longer
as may be required

465
00:22:42,278 --> 00:22:45,361
by the needs of the federation.

466
00:22:45,406 --> 00:22:48,648
Mlotek: His motivation when it
comes to depicting America

467
00:22:48,701 --> 00:22:51,192
and American cultures
is always explicitly clear.

468
00:22:52,496 --> 00:22:55,488
Announcer: Nukem!
Get them before they get you.

469
00:22:55,541 --> 00:22:58,157
I'd buy that for a dollar!

470
00:22:58,210 --> 00:23:00,201
And it is explicitly negative.

471
00:23:00,254 --> 00:23:02,540
The enforcement droid,
series 209,

472
00:23:02,590 --> 00:23:05,423
is a self-sufficient
law-enforcement robot.

473
00:23:05,467 --> 00:23:08,174
209 is currently programmed
for urban pacification,

474
00:23:08,220 --> 00:23:09,835
but that is only the beginning.

475
00:23:09,889 --> 00:23:12,221
Mlotek: When you look
at his movies as a whole,

476
00:23:12,266 --> 00:23:14,427
especially when you look
at "robocop"

477
00:23:14,476 --> 00:23:18,435
which is very overtly critical
about policing in America

478
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,095
and only gets more
relevant with age...

479
00:23:20,149 --> 00:23:23,232
I think you'd better do
what he says, Mr. Kinney.

480
00:23:25,195 --> 00:23:28,437
Ed-209: You now have
five seconds to comply.

481
00:23:28,490 --> 00:23:30,355
Help me! Help! Four, three...

482
00:23:30,409 --> 00:23:31,990
- Two, one.
- Help me!

483
00:23:32,036 --> 00:23:35,870
I am now authorized to use
physical force.

484
00:23:42,046 --> 00:23:44,628
Mlotek: Or you look
at "basic instinct”

485
00:23:44,673 --> 00:23:47,665
which says a lot about the way
American men

486
00:23:47,718 --> 00:23:49,834
of lesser intelligence
like to think about themselves

487
00:23:49,887 --> 00:23:51,673
as the hero
of their own stories,

488
00:23:51,722 --> 00:23:53,713
which is my favorite
part of it...

489
00:23:58,020 --> 00:24:01,103
Honey, I thought I'd seen
everything before.

490
00:24:01,148 --> 00:24:04,015
Did you really think
it was so special?

491
00:24:04,068 --> 00:24:07,356
I've told her. I thought it was
the fuck of the century.

492
00:24:12,701 --> 00:24:14,237
Well, what do you think?

493
00:24:17,623 --> 00:24:19,409
Mlotek:
And then you get to "showgirls,"

494
00:24:19,458 --> 00:24:21,824
which is like,
"oh, Las Vegas sucks.

495
00:24:21,877 --> 00:24:25,335
Like, you think it's this den
of responsible hedonism,

496
00:24:25,381 --> 00:24:28,123
but actually it's just,
like, as gross and base

497
00:24:28,175 --> 00:24:31,292
as every other part
of your culture."

498
00:24:31,345 --> 00:24:33,836
But it is funny when you look
at the critical response

499
00:24:33,889 --> 00:24:35,754
and you see, like,
coming off "basic instinct,"

500
00:24:35,808 --> 00:24:37,799
which is again, like,
Paul verhoeven

501
00:24:37,851 --> 00:24:39,557
literally trying
to do Hitchcock.

502
00:24:39,603 --> 00:24:42,185
He's trying to, like, best
somebody we consider

503
00:24:42,231 --> 00:24:44,847
to be one of the most,
like, unimpeachable directors

504
00:24:44,900 --> 00:24:48,813
of contemporary cinema,
and everyone is like, "cool."

505
00:24:51,156 --> 00:24:52,968
Nayman: I've just always thought
it's interesting

506
00:24:52,992 --> 00:24:57,782
that verhoeven was widely
understood in America

507
00:24:57,830 --> 00:25:01,163
as a satirist
and as a social commentator

508
00:25:01,208 --> 00:25:05,747
as long as the primary texture
of his films was violence...

509
00:25:13,387 --> 00:25:15,503
And sex was sort of
just in the background

510
00:25:15,556 --> 00:25:17,922
as a cheap thing,
like the hookers in "robocop"

511
00:25:17,975 --> 00:25:20,387
or the three-breasted stripper
in "total recall.”

512
00:25:21,937 --> 00:25:24,178
- Whoo!
- 0oh!

513
00:25:24,231 --> 00:25:26,501
Nayman: You know, the coed
showers in "starship troopers."

514
00:25:26,525 --> 00:25:28,461
I'm not putting any of those
things down, by the way.

515
00:25:28,485 --> 00:25:30,692
I like all of those things.

516
00:25:30,738 --> 00:25:33,821
Whenever he moves
that stuff to the foreground

517
00:25:33,866 --> 00:25:35,606
and makes a movie
that has a texture

518
00:25:35,659 --> 00:25:38,901
that's more overtly sexual,
like "basic instinct,”

519
00:25:38,954 --> 00:25:40,910
which is still enough
of a thriller

520
00:25:40,956 --> 00:25:42,537
that people could watch it,

521
00:25:42,583 --> 00:25:44,949
where "showgirls," all of
a sudden people didn't think

522
00:25:45,002 --> 00:25:46,742
he was a satirist
or a commentator

523
00:25:46,795 --> 00:25:48,606
or that he was being funny
or that he was being sly.

524
00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:50,541
People just sort of said,
"what a pervert."

525
00:25:52,051 --> 00:25:54,667
As if perverts can't be funny.

526
00:25:56,430 --> 00:25:59,672
In 1992, Paul verhoeven
and Joe eszterhas

527
00:25:59,725 --> 00:26:01,932
collaborated on
"basic instinct,”

528
00:26:01,977 --> 00:26:03,933
and this is how they chose
to follow it up.

529
00:26:03,979 --> 00:26:05,594
They were really doubling down

530
00:26:05,647 --> 00:26:08,730
on the idea that they could
get away with anything.

531
00:26:08,776 --> 00:26:10,232
I am a provocative person.

532
00:26:10,277 --> 00:26:12,393
I like to provoke.
There's no doubt about it.

533
00:26:12,446 --> 00:26:17,065
So if it's by using sexuality
or nudity or whatever,

534
00:26:17,117 --> 00:26:18,823
if I can provoke, 1 will do it

535
00:26:18,869 --> 00:26:21,656
because I am a child,
a little bit.

536
00:26:21,705 --> 00:26:24,367
I like to...
I think it's funny to provoke.

537
00:26:24,416 --> 00:26:26,452
I thought, you know,
we could do a musical

538
00:26:26,502 --> 00:26:29,460
that's not superficial,
that's not glib,

539
00:26:29,505 --> 00:26:31,336
that has different layers

540
00:26:31,381 --> 00:26:34,293
and that really challenges
the country,

541
00:26:34,343 --> 00:26:35,958
challenges moviegoers.

542
00:26:36,011 --> 00:26:38,093
There is no one better at that
as a director

543
00:26:38,138 --> 00:26:39,628
than Paul verhoeven,

544
00:26:39,681 --> 00:26:41,672
and I don't think
there's anyone better at that

545
00:26:41,725 --> 00:26:44,467
as a writer than I am,
and it's a nice combination.

546
00:26:47,356 --> 00:26:49,847
Nayman:
Joe eszterhas for a while

547
00:26:49,900 --> 00:26:51,765
held the designation of being,
you know,

548
00:26:51,819 --> 00:26:56,529
the highest-paid single
scriptwriter in Hollywood.

549
00:26:56,573 --> 00:26:59,440
He's a guy who began his career
as a journalist

550
00:26:59,493 --> 00:27:02,826
and, you know, always had
this sort of sensationalism

551
00:27:02,871 --> 00:27:05,283
and hysteria,
but also very smart.

552
00:27:07,668 --> 00:27:09,829
He has a real kind of...

553
00:27:11,338 --> 00:27:15,047
Hustler-trashy-pulpy
side to him.

554
00:27:15,092 --> 00:27:16,332
Hey! Oh!

555
00:27:16,385 --> 00:27:18,250
You like phone booths?

556
00:27:19,721 --> 00:27:21,962
Phone booths?

557
00:27:22,015 --> 00:27:24,757
You probably just like doing it
in bed, right?

558
00:27:24,810 --> 00:27:26,641
Nayman:
Something like "flashdance,"

559
00:27:26,687 --> 00:27:29,895
which eszterhas also wrote,
which was sort of the last word

560
00:27:29,940 --> 00:27:31,430
in the early '80s
in high concept...

561
00:27:31,483 --> 00:27:33,348
You know, a welder by day,
stripper by night...

562
00:27:33,402 --> 00:27:38,146
I mean, that's the kind of
storyteller he is.

563
00:27:38,198 --> 00:27:40,029
And I think it's not a surprise

564
00:27:40,075 --> 00:27:41,940
that he and Paul verhoeven
got along,

565
00:27:41,994 --> 00:27:44,861
and it's also not a surprise
that they fell out.

566
00:27:44,913 --> 00:27:46,699
You know, if you read
the production history

567
00:27:46,748 --> 00:27:48,033
of "basic instinct,”

568
00:27:48,083 --> 00:27:50,369
they had real arguments
with each other.

569
00:27:50,419 --> 00:27:52,705
Man: Gay activists
tried to disrupt the filming

570
00:27:52,754 --> 00:27:56,338
of "basic instinct,” claiming
the script was homophobic,

571
00:27:56,383 --> 00:27:58,624
and then eszterhas,
the man who wrote it,

572
00:27:58,677 --> 00:28:01,544
very publicly took their side.

573
00:28:03,348 --> 00:28:05,964
Nayman: You can see how they had
a falling out after "showgirls"

574
00:28:06,018 --> 00:28:08,725
because even if they were on
the same page when they made it,

575
00:28:08,770 --> 00:28:11,352
the kind of failure
that that movie had

576
00:28:11,398 --> 00:28:15,437
doesn't exactly strengthen
the bonds between collaborators.

577
00:28:22,117 --> 00:28:25,575
Schmader: Some of my favorite
horrors of Joe eszterhas

578
00:28:25,621 --> 00:28:27,532
is he has this love
of little totems

579
00:28:27,581 --> 00:28:30,243
that are supposed to
represent an entire world.

580
00:28:30,292 --> 00:28:32,624
The recurring motifs
that show up in "showgirls"...

581
00:28:32,669 --> 00:28:34,250
I got to go to work.

582
00:28:34,296 --> 00:28:36,296
Schmader: A big one
is women women talking about

583
00:28:36,340 --> 00:28:38,001
chips and nails.

584
00:28:38,050 --> 00:28:40,507
Molly: What are you gonna do,
watch TV and eat chips?

585
00:28:40,552 --> 00:28:44,044
Yeah. Where are the chips?

586
00:28:44,097 --> 00:28:45,052
Mm-mm-mm.

587
00:28:45,098 --> 00:28:46,759
Check it out!

588
00:28:46,808 --> 00:28:47,968
Wow.

589
00:28:49,311 --> 00:28:52,803
Schmader: The nails
in "showgirls" are crazy.

590
00:28:52,856 --> 00:28:54,596
Your friend has nice nails.

591
00:28:54,650 --> 00:28:56,481
She does them herself.

592
00:28:56,526 --> 00:28:59,859
Maybe she can do mine sometime.

593
00:29:01,323 --> 00:29:03,735
Schmader: Maybe Joe eszterhas
had a girlfriend once

594
00:29:03,784 --> 00:29:05,069
who talked about her nails,

595
00:29:05,118 --> 00:29:06,403
and now all women in the world

596
00:29:06,453 --> 00:29:08,239
talk about their nails.

597
00:29:10,290 --> 00:29:15,034
I didn't even know about
the audition until afterwards.

598
00:29:18,006 --> 00:29:20,622
Do you like my nails?

599
00:29:20,676 --> 00:29:24,043
Schmader: Out of the blue, women
just discussing their nails.

600
00:29:24,096 --> 00:29:28,135
It's almost like it's a cue
they send each other of, like,

601
00:29:28,183 --> 00:29:31,846
"hello. You have nails.
Now we can talk.”

602
00:29:31,895 --> 00:29:34,102
Not as nice as yours.

603
00:29:39,236 --> 00:29:42,478
Maybe I'll help you
with yours sometime.

604
00:29:42,531 --> 00:29:44,008
Schmader:
Seems like maybe he was, like,

605
00:29:44,032 --> 00:29:45,363
met one dancer and was like,

606
00:29:45,409 --> 00:29:46,636
"what's the life
of a dancer like?"

607
00:29:46,660 --> 00:29:47,945
And this one dancer said,

608
00:29:47,995 --> 00:29:49,485
"well, I went to some classes,

609
00:29:49,538 --> 00:29:51,307
and I ate a lot of brown rice
and vegetables."

610
00:29:51,331 --> 00:29:52,867
What kind of classes
have you had?

611
00:29:52,916 --> 00:29:54,747
Schmader: And that becomes
a code for him.

612
00:29:54,793 --> 00:29:57,125
You do eat brown rice
and vegetables, don't you?

613
00:29:57,170 --> 00:29:58,410
Sure.

614
00:29:58,463 --> 00:29:59,999
Jack. Jack: Yeah.

615
00:30:00,048 --> 00:30:02,084
- What do you want?
- Um, burger, fries, and soda.

616
00:30:02,134 --> 00:30:03,795
Get her some brown rice,
vegetables,

617
00:30:03,844 --> 00:30:04,924
and a bottle of evian.

618
00:30:04,970 --> 00:30:08,087
Uh-oh! Look what I found.

619
00:30:08,140 --> 00:30:10,301
Schmader: The chips, I think,
was to show

620
00:30:10,350 --> 00:30:12,056
that nomi was a wild stallion

621
00:30:12,102 --> 00:30:15,060
who wouldn't just eat
brown rice and vegetables.

622
00:30:15,105 --> 00:30:17,187
She's gonna eat a burger
on the hood of a car.

623
00:30:17,232 --> 00:30:20,065
J listen to the drummer,
come and listen to the bass j

624
00:30:20,110 --> 00:30:23,523
you like that burger? Uh-huh!

625
00:30:23,572 --> 00:30:25,688
Where you from?

626
00:30:25,741 --> 00:30:27,777
Different places.

627
00:30:29,244 --> 00:30:30,700
Schmader: A major motif also

628
00:30:30,746 --> 00:30:32,611
is the baffling charisma
of nomi Malone,

629
00:30:32,664 --> 00:30:35,451
because no one who crosses her
path can resist falling in love

630
00:30:35,500 --> 00:30:37,866
and immediately placing her
at the center of their lives.

631
00:30:37,919 --> 00:30:40,752
You can stay with me
if you need a place to crash.

632
00:30:40,797 --> 00:30:43,379
It's not much.

633
00:30:43,425 --> 00:30:45,040
Until you get a job?

634
00:30:45,093 --> 00:30:46,696
Schmader: Also this movie
has some race problems

635
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:48,085
where black people exist

636
00:30:48,138 --> 00:30:49,594
only to help nomi
achieve her dreams.

637
00:30:49,639 --> 00:30:51,721
Hey!

638
00:30:51,767 --> 00:30:54,383
Schmader: They're only there
to love and worship

639
00:30:54,436 --> 00:30:57,018
and believe in nomi in ways
she cannot believe in herself.

640
00:30:57,064 --> 00:30:59,430
James: Just listen.

641
00:31:01,401 --> 00:31:03,266
You got more natural talent
when you dance

642
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,561
than anybody I've ever seen.

643
00:31:05,614 --> 00:31:08,356
Schmader: Another big one is
it's not enough to be naked.

644
00:31:08,408 --> 00:31:10,069
You have to talk about
being naked

645
00:31:10,118 --> 00:31:12,221
while you're naked to
remind people that you're naked.

646
00:31:12,245 --> 00:31:15,453
Nomi, do my boobs
look any bigger to you?

647
00:31:15,499 --> 00:31:16,989
Woman: Come on, baby!

648
00:31:17,042 --> 00:31:19,408
Schmader:
This kind of really klutzy,

649
00:31:19,461 --> 00:31:21,577
not much interest
in actual humanity,

650
00:31:21,630 --> 00:31:24,997
just this kind of sex cartoon
that he wanted to write.

651
00:31:25,050 --> 00:31:27,211
I'm on my period.

652
00:31:27,260 --> 00:31:30,252
Yeah, right. Check.

653
00:31:30,305 --> 00:31:33,593
Schmader: It really seems like
it was written by a 13-year-old

654
00:31:33,642 --> 00:31:35,883
imagining what adults
do at night.

655
00:31:35,936 --> 00:31:37,472
See?

656
00:31:40,315 --> 00:31:44,809
Mlotek: Gender and sexism as it
relates to the film itself

657
00:31:44,861 --> 00:31:47,728
matters both in the subject
matter and the way it was made.

658
00:31:47,781 --> 00:31:50,318
Like, Paul verhoeven
has established himself

659
00:31:50,367 --> 00:31:53,234
as a director who does not
respect his actresses

660
00:31:53,286 --> 00:31:54,651
or his female characters.

661
00:31:54,704 --> 00:31:58,242
Like, very famously
he deceived Sharon stone

662
00:31:58,291 --> 00:32:00,998
into filming that famous scene
that everybody loves

663
00:32:01,044 --> 00:32:02,500
because he knew better.

664
00:32:02,546 --> 00:32:05,208
Like, that's always his thing.
He knows best.

665
00:32:05,257 --> 00:32:06,963
It's nice.

666
00:32:11,847 --> 00:32:16,967
The marking and the elements
to penny and cristal.

667
00:32:17,018 --> 00:32:20,306
Mlotek: If the person on set

668
00:32:20,355 --> 00:32:24,098
who has structurally the most
power in every sense of the word

669
00:32:24,151 --> 00:32:26,563
in that he is the director of
the film, what he says goes,

670
00:32:26,611 --> 00:32:29,148
and also he is, like,
a white, straight man

671
00:32:29,197 --> 00:32:31,233
who has established himself
as a moneymaker

672
00:32:31,283 --> 00:32:33,990
in an extremely
powerful industry,

673
00:32:34,035 --> 00:32:36,526
and so he is just
going to force a woman

674
00:32:36,580 --> 00:32:39,162
to do what he wants to do
whether she likes it or not,

675
00:32:39,207 --> 00:32:42,449
that is misogyny
replicating itself.

676
00:32:42,502 --> 00:32:44,647
Verhoeven: When you come up, go
to right there somewhere, yeah?

677
00:32:44,671 --> 00:32:45,956
Yeah.

678
00:32:46,006 --> 00:32:47,746
And then just
straight to the pole.

679
00:32:47,799 --> 00:32:49,380
Verhoeven: Right.

680
00:32:50,552 --> 00:32:52,463
And I love nudity.
I think it's great.

681
00:32:52,512 --> 00:32:55,549
Male or female,
I think it looks beautiful.

682
00:32:55,599 --> 00:32:59,308
The female body, for me,
is great and is attractive.

683
00:32:59,352 --> 00:33:01,013
It's sexual. It's beautiful.

684
00:33:01,062 --> 00:33:03,018
This aesthetic is everything.

685
00:33:03,064 --> 00:33:04,824
Shulgasser-Parker:
Women are striving to have

686
00:33:04,858 --> 00:33:06,894
real impact in society...

687
00:33:09,070 --> 00:33:12,858
To get to the supreme court,
to be president,

688
00:33:12,908 --> 00:33:17,151
to run corporations that make
policies that affect all of us.

689
00:33:17,204 --> 00:33:20,367
Those are important goals.

690
00:33:20,415 --> 00:33:22,121
Moss: I don't care
whether you live or die.

691
00:33:22,167 --> 00:33:25,034
I want to see you dance,
and I want to see you smile.

692
00:33:25,086 --> 00:33:26,997
Shulgasser-Parker:
To present us with a striver

693
00:33:27,047 --> 00:33:30,835
whose biggest goal is to dance,
you know, a striptease...

694
00:33:30,884 --> 00:33:32,840
Slap it on one.

695
00:33:32,886 --> 00:33:37,004
Shulgasser-Parker: It's so
oblivious to what is important

696
00:33:37,057 --> 00:33:40,094
to, "a," society,
and, "b,"” women

697
00:33:40,143 --> 00:33:42,179
that it's laughable.

698
00:33:42,229 --> 00:33:44,185
Gay: Slam it! Bah-bah!

699
00:33:46,024 --> 00:33:47,960
Woman: What a contrast
between "saved by the bell"

700
00:33:47,984 --> 00:33:49,599
and your new role.

701
00:33:49,653 --> 00:33:51,839
Yeah, it just seemed, you know,
the natural progression.

702
00:33:51,863 --> 00:33:54,320
As an actress, I want to portray
as many different characters,

703
00:33:54,366 --> 00:33:57,733
so, you know, it's just
a really wonderful time

704
00:33:57,786 --> 00:34:00,118
to take risks and do new things.

705
00:34:01,581 --> 00:34:03,071
J when I wake up
in the morning j»

706
00:34:03,124 --> 00:34:04,660
j and the alarm gives out
a warning j

707
00:34:06,419 --> 00:34:09,035
mlotek: Because of my age,
I grew up with Jessie spano

708
00:34:09,089 --> 00:34:10,454
on "saved by the bell."

709
00:34:10,507 --> 00:34:11,963
A beauty pageant?

710
00:34:12,008 --> 00:34:15,171
What a stupid, sexist
waste of time!

711
00:34:15,220 --> 00:34:17,757
Mlotek: Yeah, I kind of dreamed
of being someone

712
00:34:17,806 --> 00:34:20,969
who could take all my, like,
burgeoning feminist principles

713
00:34:21,017 --> 00:34:22,632
and use them to scream

714
00:34:22,686 --> 00:34:25,052
at all the dumb boys in my class
the way she did.

715
00:34:25,105 --> 00:34:27,221
This is sexist pigism
of the worst kind.

716
00:34:27,274 --> 00:34:30,357
We were discussing the obvious
benefits of a female president.

717
00:34:30,402 --> 00:34:31,858
She's long overdue.

718
00:34:31,903 --> 00:34:36,021
Yep, just like a woman.
Always late.

719
00:34:36,074 --> 00:34:38,531
Mlotek: Jessie spano
was somebody who was, like,

720
00:34:38,577 --> 00:34:40,283
as a character,
very present in my mind,

721
00:34:40,328 --> 00:34:41,597
and as such
I did always associate

722
00:34:41,621 --> 00:34:44,158
Elizabeth berkley with her.

723
00:34:44,207 --> 00:34:45,726
I think it would have been
part of this,

724
00:34:45,750 --> 00:34:48,662
like, great tradition
of very young women

725
00:34:48,712 --> 00:34:51,078
knowing that the only way
they were going to make the leap

726
00:34:51,131 --> 00:34:54,123
from child star to grown actress

727
00:34:54,175 --> 00:34:56,962
is to do something
that is probably

728
00:34:57,012 --> 00:34:58,252
a bit more provocative...

729
00:34:58,305 --> 00:34:59,761
Hi.

730
00:34:59,806 --> 00:35:02,468
Mlotek: Than is necessary,

731
00:35:02,517 --> 00:35:05,350
I want to say, to, like,
skip a step of maturity

732
00:35:05,395 --> 00:35:09,604
by going straight to,
"I do sex all the time."

733
00:35:11,192 --> 00:35:12,602
Although I guess you could

734
00:35:12,652 --> 00:35:14,005
make the argument
that on "saved by the bell"

735
00:35:14,029 --> 00:35:16,771
she was always
argumentative and loud.

736
00:35:18,199 --> 00:35:19,905
Sometimes, to get elected,

737
00:35:19,951 --> 00:35:22,442
you have to do things
you swore you never would.

738
00:35:22,495 --> 00:35:26,363
She was willing to say or do
anything and was also a dancer,

739
00:35:26,416 --> 00:35:28,748
so it seemed maybe there was,
like, a chance for a second

740
00:35:28,793 --> 00:35:31,876
that she could have
turned that into,

741
00:35:31,921 --> 00:35:34,412
I don't know,
a way to make it a real career,

742
00:35:34,466 --> 00:35:37,708
but instead it's just become,
like, a collection of scenes

743
00:35:37,761 --> 00:35:39,501
in which she's always, like,

744
00:35:39,554 --> 00:35:41,886
operating at this
very high frequency of emotions.

745
00:35:42,766 --> 00:35:44,347
Bitch!

746
00:35:52,067 --> 00:35:55,400
Mlotek: I mean,
nothing is fair in life,

747
00:35:55,445 --> 00:35:57,356
but it seems like that film

748
00:35:57,405 --> 00:35:59,085
was some sort of,
like, definitive judgment

749
00:35:59,115 --> 00:36:01,857
on what her skills really were,

750
00:36:01,910 --> 00:36:04,743
when really I think now
we're more willing to say

751
00:36:04,788 --> 00:36:07,530
that it was a greater indicator
of Paul verhoeven's directing.

752
00:36:07,582 --> 00:36:10,665
In the middle of a fight, it was
just like boom, boom, boom.

753
00:36:10,710 --> 00:36:12,496
Mlotek: But at the time
it was just like,

754
00:36:12,545 --> 00:36:13,580
"ugh, she's too intense.”

755
00:36:13,630 --> 00:36:15,040
Like, "don't hire her."

756
00:36:15,090 --> 00:36:17,331
J I'm afraid of the animals j

757
00:36:17,384 --> 00:36:18,590
oh!

758
00:36:18,635 --> 00:36:20,626
J I'm afraid of the world j

759
00:36:20,679 --> 00:36:22,294
nomi!

760
00:36:22,347 --> 00:36:23,962
Hey, you! Hold her!

761
00:36:24,015 --> 00:36:25,159
What the fuck are you doing?!

762
00:36:25,183 --> 00:36:26,923
- She started it!
- Fuck you!

763
00:36:26,976 --> 00:36:29,183
- Fuck you, asshole!
- Party's over!

764
00:36:29,229 --> 00:36:32,346
Nayman: Elizabeth berkley's
career had been that very odd,

765
00:36:32,399 --> 00:36:35,061
presentational laugh track,
"saved by the bell" world

766
00:36:35,110 --> 00:36:38,773
which is such
a distinct type of acting.

767
00:36:38,822 --> 00:36:41,313
There you have it, America.

768
00:36:41,366 --> 00:36:43,027
Judge for yourself.

769
00:36:43,076 --> 00:36:46,193
Nayman: To give a young actor,
like, a role like nomi,

770
00:36:46,246 --> 00:36:49,079
it felt like a James Dean role
or a young Robert De Niro role.

771
00:36:49,124 --> 00:36:50,739
It's a huge role.

772
00:36:50,792 --> 00:36:53,454
If it was done in a real movie,

773
00:36:53,503 --> 00:36:56,666
that would have been
a star-making role.

774
00:36:56,715 --> 00:36:58,192
Berkley: I've been
preparing for this role

775
00:36:58,216 --> 00:37:00,332
my whole life, basically,

776
00:37:00,385 --> 00:37:02,751
twelve years, two to three hours
a day dancing.

777
00:37:02,804 --> 00:37:07,764
So I can't exist, like nomi,
without dance in my life.

778
00:37:07,809 --> 00:37:12,052
I'm fortunate that I found
something that gives me such joy

779
00:37:12,105 --> 00:37:13,958
and gives me such life,
because I know a lot of people

780
00:37:13,982 --> 00:37:15,847
don't ever find that one thing.

781
00:37:15,900 --> 00:37:18,391
So, what could be better?

782
00:37:19,904 --> 00:37:22,111
Nayman:
It hurt her acting career.

783
00:37:22,157 --> 00:37:23,693
It kind of robbed this other

784
00:37:23,742 --> 00:37:25,323
great pleasure
of her life from her.

785
00:37:25,368 --> 00:37:27,108
I really feel terrible for her.

786
00:37:27,162 --> 00:37:29,744
She got a great opportunity.
She said yes.

787
00:37:29,789 --> 00:37:32,075
It was nothing but pain for her

788
00:37:32,125 --> 00:37:34,241
to even be reminded
of "showgirls."

789
00:37:34,294 --> 00:37:38,333
Man: So, you got a name?

790
00:37:38,381 --> 00:37:39,791
Nomi.

791
00:37:39,841 --> 00:37:41,752
Molly: Hey! Nomi!

792
00:37:41,801 --> 00:37:43,166
I'm nomi Malone.

793
00:37:45,346 --> 00:37:47,257
Nayman:
Well, I would be, you know,

794
00:37:47,307 --> 00:37:52,347
one of many critics
to point out the pun in nomi,

795
00:37:52,395 --> 00:37:54,977
in that it's a polyvalent pun,
you know?

796
00:37:55,023 --> 00:37:57,810
Woman: This is my friend nomi.
She's a dancer, too.

797
00:37:57,859 --> 00:37:59,962
Nayman: Nomi meaning, "do you
want to get to 'know me'?"

798
00:37:59,986 --> 00:38:03,444
Nomi meaning, “I have 'no me.'
I have no self."

799
00:38:03,490 --> 00:38:07,483
Or, "no! Me!"
You know, "I want to be first."

800
00:38:07,535 --> 00:38:09,992
Nomi: You don't know
anything about me.

801
00:38:10,038 --> 00:38:12,120
Nayman: I'm not sure
Joe eszterhas really sat down

802
00:38:12,165 --> 00:38:16,329
and mapped that out,
but it works, and I think that,

803
00:38:16,377 --> 00:38:20,370
you know, the idea that nomi
is a stage name for someone

804
00:38:20,423 --> 00:38:24,336
who is really
a Polly Ann or a pollyanna...

805
00:38:24,385 --> 00:38:26,421
Polly Ann costello!

806
00:38:26,471 --> 00:38:28,928
Your father killed your mother
then killed himself.

807
00:38:29,766 --> 00:38:31,597
See ya, pollyanna!

808
00:38:31,643 --> 00:38:33,871
Nayman: Pollyanna being
someone who's a bit of a naif...

809
00:38:33,895 --> 00:38:35,431
One day,
she looks like pollyanna.

810
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:36,765
Nayman: Someone who's naive,

811
00:38:36,815 --> 00:38:38,334
doesn't know what
she's getting into...

812
00:38:38,358 --> 00:38:39,598
Nice dress.

813
00:38:39,651 --> 00:38:42,643
Thanks.
I bought it at "versayce."

814
00:38:43,696 --> 00:38:46,278
Nayman: I mean, that's sort of
nomi's narrative, you know?

815
00:38:46,324 --> 00:38:50,363
Polly Ann costello
becomes nomi Malone.

816
00:38:52,956 --> 00:38:56,323
Sconce: There's a famous article
by Jack Smith,

817
00:38:56,376 --> 00:38:59,709
the director and film critic.

818
00:38:59,754 --> 00:39:05,545
He has a great essay he wrote
about a 1944 universal b film

819
00:39:05,593 --> 00:39:07,299
called "cobra woman."

820
00:39:08,388 --> 00:39:13,007
He talks about Maria montez, who
was a stock player at universal.

821
00:39:13,059 --> 00:39:16,426
She was usually brought in
to play vaguely ethnic roles.

822
00:39:16,479 --> 00:39:19,846
He makes a very passionate
argument about how

823
00:39:19,899 --> 00:39:22,106
it is
the single greatest performance

824
00:39:22,151 --> 00:39:24,062
in the history of cinema.

825
00:39:24,112 --> 00:39:26,819
- Who are you?
- I am your sister.

826
00:39:29,450 --> 00:39:31,236
Sconce: He's not being ironic.

827
00:39:31,286 --> 00:39:32,571
He's not being sarcastic.

828
00:39:32,620 --> 00:39:34,611
King cobra!

829
00:39:34,664 --> 00:39:37,997
Sconce: He loves it
because in this moment,

830
00:39:38,042 --> 00:39:40,749
when she's playing
the queen of the cobras,

831
00:39:40,795 --> 00:39:46,586
she's so into it that it just
takes it to a whole other level.

832
00:39:51,556 --> 00:39:53,137
Emcee: Ladies and gentlemen,

833
00:39:53,182 --> 00:39:58,722
the stardust proudly presents
miss nomi Malone.

834
00:40:01,733 --> 00:40:03,519
Sconce: And in many respects,

835
00:40:03,568 --> 00:40:08,312
Elizabeth berkley's performance
in that film is that way for me.

836
00:40:08,364 --> 00:40:10,946
You know,
she is the center of it,

837
00:40:10,992 --> 00:40:12,528
and it really sort of
depends on her

838
00:40:12,577 --> 00:40:16,411
maintaining this kind of
hysterical energy

839
00:40:16,456 --> 00:40:20,415
all the way through from the
first minute to the last minute.

840
00:40:21,419 --> 00:40:23,564
Just makes you think about
a whole other kind of acting

841
00:40:23,588 --> 00:40:25,795
that we just don't get
in the cinema anymore.

842
00:40:30,511 --> 00:40:35,130
Emcee: "Midnight mass" proud to
present miss peaches Christ.

843
00:40:35,183 --> 00:40:37,799
Peaches Christ: You don't get
much better of a climax

844
00:40:37,852 --> 00:40:39,968
than exploding out of
a volcano, right,

845
00:40:40,021 --> 00:40:43,263
so that's pretty much
how our shows always open.

846
00:40:43,316 --> 00:40:45,773
Sometimes I come out
of the volcano, and I'm cristal.

847
00:40:45,818 --> 00:40:47,683
Sometimes I come out,
and I'm nomi.

848
00:40:47,737 --> 00:40:49,318
It just depends.

849
00:40:49,364 --> 00:40:53,607
There's always someone
younger and hungrier

850
00:40:53,660 --> 00:40:56,447
coming down the stairs
after you.

851
00:40:57,997 --> 00:41:00,454
And then there's
some sort of centerpiece

852
00:41:00,500 --> 00:41:02,786
that has varied over the years,

853
00:41:02,835 --> 00:41:05,872
and through the years
having done the show so much,

854
00:41:05,922 --> 00:41:10,962
that center scene probably
has changed enough times

855
00:41:11,010 --> 00:41:12,546
that we've done the whole movie.

856
00:41:12,595 --> 00:41:15,211
We both want to ride
the "ma-nomi pony"

857
00:41:15,264 --> 00:41:17,220
in a private dance room.

858
00:41:17,266 --> 00:41:19,973
How much is it, darling?
A dollar?

859
00:41:20,019 --> 00:41:21,725
It's just perfection.

860
00:41:21,771 --> 00:41:24,854
- Nope, sorry.
- Okay.

861
00:41:24,899 --> 00:41:27,515
Uh, why don't you just make
Zack here come in his pants

862
00:41:27,568 --> 00:41:30,605
while I grind my pussy
on this filthy chair?

863
00:41:32,907 --> 00:41:36,616
You either get it, or you don't,
but for those of us that get it,

864
00:41:36,661 --> 00:41:38,777
it can become our religion.

865
00:41:45,461 --> 00:41:47,247
Well, after I moved
to San Francisco,

866
00:41:47,296 --> 00:41:51,209
I began performing
at a local drag nightclub

867
00:41:51,259 --> 00:41:54,843
called trannyshack that was
brand-new here in San Francisco,

868
00:41:54,887 --> 00:41:56,673
and after a few years
of performing,

869
00:41:56,723 --> 00:42:00,557
we decided to create this other
show called "midnight mass,"

870
00:42:00,601 --> 00:42:05,015
which was going to celebrate
my love for midnight movies.

871
00:42:05,064 --> 00:42:06,850
And so, at the time,

872
00:42:06,899 --> 00:42:10,562
landmark theatres had
some midnight-movie programs,

873
00:42:10,611 --> 00:42:14,354
and the programming was kind of
what you would describe

874
00:42:14,407 --> 00:42:16,898
as classically midnight,

875
00:42:16,951 --> 00:42:19,442
college fare like
"taxi driver"...

876
00:42:19,495 --> 00:42:21,406
You got to be kidding.

877
00:42:21,456 --> 00:42:24,323
- What?
- This is a dirty movie.

878
00:42:24,375 --> 00:42:26,081
Peaches Christ:
"A clockwork orange"...

879
00:42:26,127 --> 00:42:29,039
Stop it! Stop it!
Please, I beg you!

880
00:42:29,088 --> 00:42:31,204
Peaches Christ:
Maybe a John waters film

881
00:42:31,257 --> 00:42:32,542
if you were really lucky.

882
00:42:32,592 --> 00:42:34,253
And the next package
you bring me

883
00:42:34,302 --> 00:42:36,042
is getting shoved
right up your little ass.

884
00:42:36,095 --> 00:42:37,631
Can you comprehend that?

885
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:39,324
Peaches Christ: And so
when I came back and said,

886
00:42:39,348 --> 00:42:41,885
"I'd like to book this film,
'showgirls,

887
00:42:41,934 --> 00:42:45,802
I remember the booker saying,
"that movie with Demi Moore?"

888
00:42:48,483 --> 00:42:49,848
And I was like, "no."

889
00:42:49,901 --> 00:42:50,981
Girl: Mama!

890
00:42:52,487 --> 00:42:54,227
Baby. Oh!

891
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:55,816
Peaches Christ: "No!

892
00:42:55,865 --> 00:42:58,072
That is striptease, '

893
00:42:58,117 --> 00:43:00,403
and I have no interest
in 'striptease.'

894
00:43:00,453 --> 00:43:03,866
did you guys
like our freak show?

895
00:43:03,915 --> 00:43:06,497
We've had to get
really experimental

896
00:43:06,542 --> 00:43:08,874
after doing 19 shows.

897
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,127
All right, ladies and gentlemen.

898
00:43:11,172 --> 00:43:13,834
And then we, you know,
tear down that fourth wall,

899
00:43:13,883 --> 00:43:16,169
which really was never there
to begin with

900
00:43:16,219 --> 00:43:18,380
and introduce our lap dancers.

901
00:43:18,429 --> 00:43:22,388
Let's see your large popcorns.
Hold them up high.

902
00:43:22,433 --> 00:43:26,597
We advertised free lap dances
with every large popcorn.

903
00:43:26,646 --> 00:43:29,388
Here we go! Lap dancing!

904
00:43:31,109 --> 00:43:35,899
And they were, like, filthy,
disgusting, boogery,

905
00:43:35,947 --> 00:43:38,689
horrifying drag queens.

906
00:43:38,741 --> 00:43:40,402
In San Francisco,
a drag queen can be...

907
00:43:40,451 --> 00:43:44,490
Really anyone can do drag...
Men, women, whatever.

908
00:43:47,458 --> 00:43:50,370
They come up, and they have
shit on their panties.

909
00:43:51,879 --> 00:43:53,585
My prerequisite was that

910
00:43:53,631 --> 00:43:56,714
you should frighten
the audience, you know?

911
00:44:05,601 --> 00:44:07,057
Whuh!

912
00:44:07,103 --> 00:44:08,639
Ha ha!

913
00:44:08,688 --> 00:44:11,054
Peaches Christ: I think
it definitely fits into

914
00:44:11,107 --> 00:44:14,224
the classic tropes
that go along with

915
00:44:14,277 --> 00:44:16,017
something that becomes
a cult movie.

916
00:44:16,070 --> 00:44:17,185
Pull your dress up!

917
00:44:17,238 --> 00:44:19,445
Honey, you could never handle me

918
00:44:19,490 --> 00:44:20,900
with all these wrinkles of fat.

919
00:44:20,950 --> 00:44:22,440
Ohh! Ohh!

920
00:44:22,493 --> 00:44:24,279
Why, you'd never even
find the thing.

921
00:44:25,746 --> 00:44:27,224
Peaches Christ:
It was misunderstood...

922
00:44:27,248 --> 00:44:30,365
I'd have to piss on you
to give you a clue.

923
00:44:30,418 --> 00:44:33,080
Peaches Christ:
When it came out.

924
00:44:33,129 --> 00:44:37,623
I think often films like
"the rocky horror picture show,"

925
00:44:37,675 --> 00:44:40,462
"showgirls," "mommie dearest,"

926
00:44:40,511 --> 00:44:45,050
they tend to go too far
for a mainstream audience.

927
00:44:45,099 --> 00:44:47,306
Why are you doing that?!
Tell me!

928
00:44:47,351 --> 00:44:49,182
You sit still now!

929
00:44:49,228 --> 00:44:51,123
Peaches Christ: And so it takes
a little bit longer

930
00:44:51,147 --> 00:44:53,763
for the cult to kind of,

931
00:44:53,816 --> 00:44:56,603
to build and find it and say,
"hey, you know what?

932
00:44:56,652 --> 00:44:59,644
Like, we love
Faye dunaway's performance

933
00:44:59,697 --> 00:45:00,903
in "mommie dearest."

934
00:45:00,948 --> 00:45:02,438
You expect me to ignore my fans?

935
00:45:02,491 --> 00:45:05,403
They're life and death to me,
baby.

936
00:45:05,453 --> 00:45:07,556
Peaches Christ: Not only
does it have tremendous value,

937
00:45:07,580 --> 00:45:11,573
I want to watch this thing
over and over and over again,

938
00:45:11,626 --> 00:45:14,368
and I want to memorize
all of the lines.

939
00:45:14,420 --> 00:45:19,756
No wire hangers!

940
00:45:21,093 --> 00:45:25,382
What's wire hangers doing
in this closet when I told you

941
00:45:25,431 --> 00:45:30,892
- no wire hangers ever?!
- Crowd: No wire hangers ever?!

942
00:45:30,937 --> 00:45:33,053
Peaches Christ:
So somehow you can take

943
00:45:33,105 --> 00:45:34,845
a great,
you know, a movie like that

944
00:45:34,899 --> 00:45:37,936
and then say,
"no, this isn't for you.

945
00:45:37,985 --> 00:45:39,566
This is for us."

946
00:45:41,822 --> 00:45:44,859
It's really Elizabeth
that audiences over the years

947
00:45:44,909 --> 00:45:48,447
have shown up again and again
to watch repeatedly

948
00:45:48,496 --> 00:45:50,532
because it's such
an extraordinary

949
00:45:50,581 --> 00:45:52,242
and bizarre performance.

950
00:45:52,291 --> 00:45:53,827
Woman: Excuse me.

951
00:45:53,876 --> 00:45:55,771
- Wait, you cannot go in there!
- What's going on?

952
00:45:55,795 --> 00:45:57,439
What the fuck do you mean,
"what's going on?"

953
00:45:57,463 --> 00:46:00,170
So there I was dancing
butt naked for five minutes.

954
00:46:00,216 --> 00:46:02,207
Peaches Christ:
Gina gershon is brilliant.

955
00:46:02,260 --> 00:46:04,876
She says that she played
the film as a drag queen

956
00:46:04,929 --> 00:46:07,796
and kind of understood
or knew...

957
00:46:07,848 --> 00:46:10,180
You think you could
do my nails now?

958
00:46:10,226 --> 00:46:13,138
Conway: She just has
a bit of a flair of knowing

959
00:46:13,187 --> 00:46:15,894
that she's in
a stylish piece of garbage.

960
00:46:15,940 --> 00:46:18,647
Gershon: If you know that myth
at all, and it's, you know,

961
00:46:18,693 --> 00:46:22,732
"here's Aphrodite, the big,
you know, queen-bee goddess,"

962
00:46:22,780 --> 00:46:25,317
and all of a sudden,
some little, you know,

963
00:46:25,366 --> 00:46:27,732
chick comes along
who wants to be,

964
00:46:27,785 --> 00:46:29,571
you know, a goddess,
or everyone is, like,

965
00:46:29,620 --> 00:46:33,454
saying that's what she is, and
she says, "well, okay, honey,"

966
00:46:33,499 --> 00:46:35,080
you know,
"I'll make you a goddess

967
00:46:35,126 --> 00:46:36,582
if you pass a couple of tests...

968
00:46:36,627 --> 00:46:38,538
Which I know,
by the way, you won't,"

969
00:46:38,587 --> 00:46:40,440
and she gives her these tests,
"pass these tests,"

970
00:46:40,464 --> 00:46:42,295
and she keeps passing them,
passing them,

971
00:46:42,341 --> 00:46:45,629
and basically at the end of it,
you know, she's made immortal.

972
00:46:45,678 --> 00:46:50,012
Conway: I would say two minutes
into it, I just, like,

973
00:46:50,057 --> 00:46:52,844
my blood started
to pulse through my body,

974
00:46:52,893 --> 00:46:56,351
and I got so excited because,
1 don't know.

975
00:46:56,397 --> 00:46:59,184
There's just something
that just screams "bad"

976
00:46:59,233 --> 00:47:01,064
the moment you see nomi's face,

977
00:47:01,110 --> 00:47:03,943
and she kind of licks her lips
a little bit on the highway,

978
00:47:03,988 --> 00:47:07,901
and I was literally jumping
up and down on the bed.

979
00:47:07,950 --> 00:47:11,158
The trilogy of camp
was complete...

980
00:47:11,203 --> 00:47:16,197
The trilogy being the 1967 film
"valley of the dolls"...

981
00:47:16,250 --> 00:47:17,786
I wouldn't pay any attention
to that.

982
00:47:17,835 --> 00:47:19,871
You know how bitchy fags can be.

983
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,708
Conway:
The film "mommie dearest,"

984
00:47:23,758 --> 00:47:25,965
and now
this beautiful "showgirls."

985
00:47:26,010 --> 00:47:31,255
It felt like it was part of
that same genre,

986
00:47:31,307 --> 00:47:33,719
meaning sort of
these female characters

987
00:47:33,768 --> 00:47:36,976
who climb their way
towards the top.

988
00:47:50,242 --> 00:47:54,235
But all three of them are just
so impossibly bad

989
00:47:54,288 --> 00:47:57,655
and so thrilling
at the same time.

990
00:48:02,296 --> 00:48:03,957
Woman: Who the hell are you?

991
00:48:05,925 --> 00:48:07,461
Oh!

992
00:48:07,510 --> 00:48:11,423
Conway: There's this really
hard-wrought seriousness

993
00:48:11,472 --> 00:48:15,010
the actors
are trying to portray...

994
00:48:15,059 --> 00:48:19,598
Why can't you treat me
like I would be treated

995
00:48:19,647 --> 00:48:23,731
by any stranger on the street?

996
00:48:23,776 --> 00:48:29,362
Because I am not
one of your fans!

997
00:48:31,742 --> 00:48:34,358
Aaaah!

998
00:48:34,412 --> 00:48:36,152
You never loved me!

999
00:48:36,205 --> 00:48:37,516
Conway:
That the films themselves,

1000
00:48:37,540 --> 00:48:39,451
the stories
are trying to establish

1001
00:48:39,500 --> 00:48:43,459
that just so completely fail
that make them hilarious

1002
00:48:43,504 --> 00:48:45,916
and sort of immortal.

1003
00:48:47,716 --> 00:48:48,751
Higher!

1004
00:48:48,801 --> 00:48:50,541
Not that high!

1005
00:48:52,138 --> 00:48:54,470
Stay in sync!

1006
00:48:54,515 --> 00:48:56,506
One, two, three, turn!

1007
00:48:56,559 --> 00:49:00,555
Thrust it! Thrust it!

1008
00:49:00,604 --> 00:49:02,094
Come on! Thrust it!

1009
00:49:02,148 --> 00:49:04,104
Bah! Okay.

1010
00:49:04,150 --> 00:49:06,687
That's enough.
Thank you, ladies.

1011
00:49:06,735 --> 00:49:08,521
Conway:
I just felt that, you know,

1012
00:49:08,571 --> 00:49:10,983
like a triple crown,
it was done.

1013
00:49:11,031 --> 00:49:12,862
Civilization had done its job.

1014
00:49:14,368 --> 00:49:16,279
J one, two, three, bend j

1015
00:49:16,328 --> 00:49:18,535
j one, two, three, stretch j

1016
00:49:18,581 --> 00:49:20,446
Conway: It depends on
probably your age

1017
00:49:20,499 --> 00:49:25,368
how much the biography
of Elizabeth berkley,

1018
00:49:25,421 --> 00:49:28,879
like, impacts your experience
of the film.

1019
00:49:28,924 --> 00:49:32,212
J strong whenever
you're around j

1020
00:49:32,261 --> 00:49:36,800
j I walk on air,
I barely touch the ground j

1021
00:49:36,849 --> 00:49:39,215
Conway: So for me, I had to buy

1022
00:49:39,268 --> 00:49:42,260
the "saved by the bell" series
on DVD because I wanted...

1023
00:49:42,313 --> 00:49:44,850
I had read descriptions
of the episode

1024
00:49:44,899 --> 00:49:47,265
where she gets addicted
to the caffeine pills.

1025
00:49:47,318 --> 00:49:51,436
What really resonated for me was
this notion that this character,

1026
00:49:51,489 --> 00:49:55,357
Jessie spano, was somehow
morphing into Patty Duke...

1027
00:49:55,409 --> 00:49:58,822
Just one, and one more.

1028
00:49:58,871 --> 00:50:01,203
Conway: Playing neely O'Hara
in "valley of the dolls,"

1029
00:50:01,248 --> 00:50:05,036
who goes way over the top
when she gets high on pills,

1030
00:50:05,085 --> 00:50:07,701
which in the movie
they refer to as "dolls."

1031
00:50:07,755 --> 00:50:09,211
God!

1032
00:50:10,424 --> 00:50:13,507
I need a doll!

1033
00:50:13,552 --> 00:50:15,543
Don't leave me here!

1034
00:50:15,596 --> 00:50:16,836
Jessie, give me those!

1035
00:50:16,889 --> 00:50:18,220
I need them, Zack!
I have to sing!

1036
00:50:18,265 --> 00:50:20,722
Jessie! You can't sing tonight.

1037
00:50:20,768 --> 00:50:21,848
Yes, I can!

1038
00:50:21,894 --> 00:50:26,808
J I'm so excited j

1039
00:50:26,857 --> 00:50:31,567
I'm so scared!

1040
00:50:31,612 --> 00:50:33,477
Conway: It was like
these invisible threads

1041
00:50:33,531 --> 00:50:35,647
that started, like,
stitching together

1042
00:50:35,699 --> 00:50:37,280
nomi in the movie

1043
00:50:37,326 --> 00:50:40,693
to Elizabeth berkley
as Jessie spano

1044
00:50:40,746 --> 00:50:42,282
in this TV show,

1045
00:50:42,331 --> 00:50:48,076
neely O'Hara...
Patty Duke... aka Judy garland.

1046
00:50:48,128 --> 00:50:49,459
They were all sort of morphing

1047
00:50:49,505 --> 00:50:54,920
into this supersonic
generic character.

1048
00:50:58,973 --> 00:51:03,888
So after years of watching
"showgirls" hundreds of times,

1049
00:51:03,936 --> 00:51:07,929
one night in my little
studio apartment in New York,

1050
00:51:07,982 --> 00:51:11,725
I had just finished
watching the film yet again,

1051
00:51:11,777 --> 00:51:13,187
and I thought to myself,

1052
00:51:13,237 --> 00:51:15,819
"am I just gonna watch
this movie until I die?"

1053
00:51:15,864 --> 00:51:17,604
Something just came to me.

1054
00:51:17,658 --> 00:51:20,866
I should write a whole book
of sestinas about "showgirls."

1055
00:51:20,911 --> 00:51:24,699
It's a love of the film
and of course my love of poetry,

1056
00:51:24,748 --> 00:51:26,204
and I kind of
put the two together,

1057
00:51:26,250 --> 00:51:29,037
and it started happening
that very night.

1058
00:51:32,548 --> 00:51:35,665
You got me the audition,
didn't you?

1059
00:51:35,718 --> 00:51:37,299
Cristal: Mm-hmm.

1060
00:51:37,344 --> 00:51:40,177
Nomi: Why?

1061
00:51:40,222 --> 00:51:43,430
Wloszcyna: I gave it 2 1/2 stars
out of four,

1062
00:51:43,475 --> 00:51:46,137
and, you know,
I was fine with that,

1063
00:51:46,186 --> 00:51:48,677
and I think some people
were surprised.

1064
00:51:48,731 --> 00:51:52,315
But some of my, you know,
coworkers who trusted my taste,

1065
00:51:52,359 --> 00:51:54,816
they actually went to see it
based on my review,

1066
00:51:54,862 --> 00:51:57,478
and I think with
the frame of reference

1067
00:51:57,531 --> 00:52:00,318
I had in my review
of how to approach it

1068
00:52:00,367 --> 00:52:01,982
and the way to view it

1069
00:52:02,036 --> 00:52:06,200
that they understood
what was going on here.

1070
00:52:06,248 --> 00:52:09,115
I hate you.

1071
00:52:09,168 --> 00:52:10,829
I know.

1072
00:52:15,758 --> 00:52:19,091
Wloszcyna:
Well, I knew it was campy.

1073
00:52:19,136 --> 00:52:20,672
It was something else,

1074
00:52:20,721 --> 00:52:24,339
and it had this attitude
that I kind of appreciated,

1075
00:52:24,391 --> 00:52:28,179
and so I took it from,
you know, judging it...

1076
00:52:28,228 --> 00:52:29,889
"Was I entertained?” yes,

1077
00:52:29,938 --> 00:52:32,554
but not maybe in the way
that some people,

1078
00:52:32,608 --> 00:52:35,190
especially men...

1079
00:52:35,235 --> 00:52:38,693
You know, most critics, as how,
were males,

1080
00:52:38,739 --> 00:52:40,946
and maybe they didn't
quite get it,

1081
00:52:40,991 --> 00:52:44,700
but to me one thing I like about
Paul verhoeven's movies

1082
00:52:44,745 --> 00:52:46,406
is that he gets women.

1083
00:52:51,126 --> 00:52:54,414
He doesn't see them as being
these fragile creatures

1084
00:52:54,463 --> 00:52:56,624
who need saving.

1085
00:52:56,674 --> 00:52:59,416
I got him, Clarence! I got him!

1086
00:53:03,180 --> 00:53:05,887
You want to walk down to spago,
get something to eat?

1087
00:53:05,933 --> 00:53:08,891
- Where is it?
- Just down from "versayce."

1088
00:53:08,936 --> 00:53:11,769
Schmader: The spago scene is,
for a lot of us,

1089
00:53:11,814 --> 00:53:16,274
it's the crown Jewel
of "showgirls,"

1090
00:53:16,318 --> 00:53:18,855
and it's nomi and cristal
going out for lunch.

1091
00:53:18,904 --> 00:53:20,519
They were supposed
to have rehearsal,

1092
00:53:20,572 --> 00:53:22,759
but cristal is feeling a little
turned inside out today,

1093
00:53:22,783 --> 00:53:25,946
so they're going to go
to a schmancy lunch.

1094
00:53:25,994 --> 00:53:29,987
What I love about this scene
is it seems like it was written

1095
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:35,410
by a brain-dead Harold pinter,
where the subtext is stunning

1096
00:53:35,462 --> 00:53:37,874
until you realize
there is no subtext.

1097
00:53:37,923 --> 00:53:40,130
Don't they have
brown rice and vegetables?

1098
00:53:41,552 --> 00:53:43,588
Do you like brown rice
and vegetables?

1099
00:53:43,637 --> 00:53:45,423
Yeah.

1100
00:53:45,472 --> 00:53:47,087
You do?

1101
00:53:48,267 --> 00:53:50,258
Sort of.

1102
00:53:50,310 --> 00:53:53,017
Schmader: This is "showgirls"
golden moment.

1103
00:53:53,063 --> 00:53:54,928
It's worse than dog food.

1104
00:53:54,982 --> 00:53:57,394
«jt is.

1105
00:53:59,319 --> 00:54:02,061
I've had dog food.

1106
00:54:02,114 --> 00:54:05,732
Schmader: It's this
surreal discussion of

1107
00:54:05,784 --> 00:54:08,446
the aforementioned
brown-rice-and-vegetable diet

1108
00:54:08,495 --> 00:54:11,282
of the dancer,
and it steers into both women

1109
00:54:11,331 --> 00:54:14,994
communing over their love
of doggy chow, wistfully.

1110
00:54:15,043 --> 00:54:17,125
I used to love doggy chow.

1111
00:54:18,213 --> 00:54:20,750
I used to love doggy chow too.

1112
00:54:20,799 --> 00:54:22,585
Schmader: There's a moment
where Gina gershon

1113
00:54:22,634 --> 00:54:25,216
looks into the distance,
and her eyes kind of mist up,

1114
00:54:25,262 --> 00:54:27,423
and she talks about how
she used to eat doggy chow

1115
00:54:27,473 --> 00:54:30,135
- a long time ago.
- A long time ago.

1116
00:54:30,184 --> 00:54:31,411
What do you think
of the richer flavor

1117
00:54:31,435 --> 00:54:33,426
we put into new purina dog chow?

1118
00:54:33,479 --> 00:54:34,998
Schmader: Like, what are
they really talking about?

1119
00:54:35,022 --> 00:54:36,853
What are they talking about?

1120
00:54:36,899 --> 00:54:40,141
Dog:
This is dog food's finest hour.

1121
00:54:40,194 --> 00:54:42,685
Schmader: They're talking about
eating dog food.

1122
00:54:42,738 --> 00:54:46,322
And at the end of it,
they toast with their chips,

1123
00:54:46,366 --> 00:54:49,779
bringing several
"showgirls" motifs full circle.

1124
00:55:02,007 --> 00:55:03,007
Hey!

1125
00:55:12,392 --> 00:55:14,508
Nayman: So they're sitting down
at the table,

1126
00:55:14,561 --> 00:55:16,347
and we're getting
pretty conventional

1127
00:55:16,396 --> 00:55:17,681
shot/reverse-shot cutting.

1128
00:55:17,731 --> 00:55:20,313
I mean, any scene
is put together this way.

1129
00:55:20,359 --> 00:55:24,978
Gina gershon is frame left,
and berkley is frame right,

1130
00:55:25,030 --> 00:55:27,442
and it proceeds that way
for a while

1131
00:55:27,491 --> 00:55:30,574
as they go through
their absurd dialog.

1132
00:55:30,619 --> 00:55:32,655
I used to love doggy chow too.

1133
00:55:32,704 --> 00:55:37,038
Nayman: At a certain point
after they pour this toast,

1134
00:55:37,084 --> 00:55:39,416
gershon is on the other side
of the screen.

1135
00:55:42,005 --> 00:55:44,166
It's sort of
a really interesting bit

1136
00:55:44,216 --> 00:55:45,797
of visual trickery by verhoeven

1137
00:55:45,843 --> 00:55:48,835
where he violates
the 180-degree axis.

1138
00:55:48,887 --> 00:55:50,093
You have great tits.

1139
00:55:50,138 --> 00:55:51,574
Nayman: And now,
even though they haven't

1140
00:55:51,598 --> 00:55:53,429
switched position in reality,

1141
00:55:53,475 --> 00:55:57,969
for the film, nomi is now
suddenly on frame left.

1142
00:55:58,021 --> 00:55:59,431
Thank you.

1143
00:55:59,481 --> 00:56:01,893
Nayman: And it's
a really interesting reversal

1144
00:56:01,942 --> 00:56:05,651
and the violation
of basic screen continuity.

1145
00:56:05,696 --> 00:56:07,687
I like having nice tits.

1146
00:56:07,739 --> 00:56:11,106
You like to show 'em off.

1147
00:56:11,159 --> 00:56:13,346
Nayman: And it just sort of
seems like a really eloquent,

1148
00:56:13,370 --> 00:56:15,110
and in this case sort of subtle

1149
00:56:15,163 --> 00:56:17,620
because we're all distracted
by what they're talking about,

1150
00:56:17,666 --> 00:56:19,907
way to suggest visually

1151
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:22,793
that these women
are somewhat equivalent.

1152
00:56:22,838 --> 00:56:24,578
Made me feel like a hooker.

1153
00:56:24,631 --> 00:56:26,542
You are a whore, darling.

1154
00:56:26,592 --> 00:56:27,923
No, I'm not.

1155
00:56:27,968 --> 00:56:29,708
We all are.

1156
00:56:29,761 --> 00:56:32,298
We take the cash.
We cash the check.

1157
00:56:32,347 --> 00:56:34,508
We show them
what they want to see.

1158
00:56:37,811 --> 00:56:40,427
Sconce: You never know what's
going to become a cult film,

1159
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:42,186
and people are always saying,
you know,

1160
00:56:42,232 --> 00:56:44,268
"maybe cult films
will cease to exist

1161
00:56:44,318 --> 00:56:47,025
because that whole notion
of camp and cult,

1162
00:56:47,070 --> 00:56:48,810
for so long, was based

1163
00:56:48,864 --> 00:56:51,071
on that old idea
from Susan sontag

1164
00:56:51,116 --> 00:56:53,573
about failed seriousness.

1165
00:56:53,619 --> 00:56:55,530
Not the bees! Aah!

1166
00:56:55,579 --> 00:56:58,241
Sconce: A film can't know if
it's camp to really be camp.

1167
00:56:58,290 --> 00:56:59,851
You know, I guess sort of
the classic example

1168
00:56:59,875 --> 00:57:01,866
would be something like
"plan 9 from outer space"

1169
00:57:01,919 --> 00:57:05,002
where, you know,
it's so bad, it's good.

1170
00:57:05,047 --> 00:57:08,881
He's close enough!
Turn off your electrode gun! No!

1171
00:57:08,926 --> 00:57:10,211
I can't get it! It's jammed!

1172
00:57:10,260 --> 00:57:11,466
Stop him, you fool!

1173
00:57:11,511 --> 00:57:13,467
Drop the gun to the floor,
tanna!

1174
00:57:13,513 --> 00:57:14,719
The metal will break contact.

1175
00:57:17,643 --> 00:57:21,431
Sconce: The ones I'm less
happy about are, you know,

1176
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:23,266
can you still have cult films
in a era

1177
00:57:23,315 --> 00:57:26,478
where you have things
like "sharknado," right?

1178
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:31,938
Where you kind of have
this intentional camp aesthetic.

1179
00:57:31,990 --> 00:57:34,231
God bless America.

1180
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:38,530
Sconce:
Camp is failed seriousness

1181
00:57:38,580 --> 00:57:41,162
except when it's,
you know, performative camp

1182
00:57:41,208 --> 00:57:43,745
where they know
that they're exaggerating.

1183
00:57:43,794 --> 00:57:46,206
The question of how intention
relates to camp

1184
00:57:46,254 --> 00:57:48,290
is really complicated.

1185
00:57:48,340 --> 00:57:50,001
A sexual... sexual...

1186
00:57:50,050 --> 00:57:51,836
- Rhythmic and a very...
- Modern jazz.

1187
00:57:51,885 --> 00:57:53,500
And a very edgy... poetic.

1188
00:57:53,553 --> 00:57:56,511
Edgy with very sharp
movements and stuff like that.

1189
00:57:56,556 --> 00:58:00,799
So you're always using a whip,
you know, so it's really sexy.

1190
00:58:04,481 --> 00:58:06,563
Sconce:
What matters is what's there.

1191
00:58:06,608 --> 00:58:09,145
You can never really
trust writers

1192
00:58:09,194 --> 00:58:10,730
or directors about their intent

1193
00:58:10,779 --> 00:58:12,394
because sometimes
they don't even know

1194
00:58:12,447 --> 00:58:13,841
what they're trying
to do, necessarily,

1195
00:58:13,865 --> 00:58:15,275
or things come out differently,

1196
00:58:15,325 --> 00:58:17,281
then they change their story.

1197
00:58:17,327 --> 00:58:20,114
Verhoeven: It's the first time
that I did a musical.

1198
00:58:20,163 --> 00:58:23,747
When I was kid, when there were
these American musicals

1199
00:58:23,792 --> 00:58:26,033
coming to Europe
immediately after the war,

1200
00:58:26,086 --> 00:58:30,045
I was always fascinated by that.

1201
00:58:30,090 --> 00:58:33,048
Schmader: Paul verhoeven wrote
a companion book,

1202
00:58:33,093 --> 00:58:35,505
a picture book that goes along
with the film,

1203
00:58:35,554 --> 00:58:37,340
called "showgirls:
Portrait of a film."

1204
00:58:37,389 --> 00:58:39,220
I have to say
that it kind of mirrors

1205
00:58:39,266 --> 00:58:41,222
the experience
of watching the film.

1206
00:58:41,268 --> 00:58:43,884
It's a book
that's beautifully produced.

1207
00:58:43,937 --> 00:58:48,351
However, it's this utter and
complete pretentious seriousness

1208
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:51,483
about what this film
is going to do.

1209
00:58:56,116 --> 00:58:57,856
Nayman:
It's written as if this movie

1210
00:58:57,909 --> 00:58:59,524
is about to be a great success,

1211
00:58:59,578 --> 00:59:01,819
and this is going to be
a chronicle of its success.

1212
00:59:01,872 --> 00:59:03,850
In my book I describe it
as like reading a brochure

1213
00:59:03,874 --> 00:59:05,830
for the Titanic.

1214
00:59:09,129 --> 00:59:10,869
Schmader:
And it's gotten more valuable

1215
00:59:10,922 --> 00:59:15,086
because he's since made some
moves to kind of recast it as,

1216
00:59:15,135 --> 00:59:18,252
it was supposed to be bad,
it was supposed to be a joke,

1217
00:59:18,305 --> 00:59:19,465
all of that was on purpose.

1218
00:59:19,514 --> 00:59:21,254
But the essays are,

1219
00:59:21,308 --> 00:59:25,551
it's all about what a meaningful
erotic drama it is,

1220
00:59:25,604 --> 00:59:30,314
the kind of spiritual warfare
between cristal and nomi.

1221
00:59:33,403 --> 00:59:35,485
It's invaluable
for all those times

1222
00:59:35,530 --> 00:59:37,145
that you're watching
"showgirls,"

1223
00:59:37,199 --> 00:59:39,093
and your brain says,
"what the fuck was he thinking?

1224
00:59:39,117 --> 00:59:41,554
What the fuck was he thinking?"
And this dossier is the closest

1225
00:59:41,578 --> 00:59:42,988
we will ever get to the answer.

1226
00:59:55,759 --> 00:59:57,420
Woman: We're the razzies.

1227
00:59:57,469 --> 00:59:59,084
We don't have rules...

1228
00:59:59,137 --> 01:00:03,346
Except, of course, that
the movies really, uh, suck!

1229
01:00:08,730 --> 01:00:10,311
"Showgirls"!

1230
01:00:13,985 --> 01:00:16,647
Schmader: Paul verhoeven
accepted his worst film,

1231
01:00:16,696 --> 01:00:19,813
worst director award
at the razzies

1232
01:00:19,866 --> 01:00:24,451
and was the first in history
to show up to accept it.

1233
01:00:24,496 --> 01:00:26,657
The worst thing
happened to me today.

1234
01:00:26,706 --> 01:00:29,413
I got seven of the worst awards,

1235
01:00:29,459 --> 01:00:32,292
and I'm very happy
because it was much better,

1236
01:00:32,337 --> 01:00:34,749
much more fun than reading
the reviews in September.

1237
01:00:34,798 --> 01:00:36,038
Thank you so much.

1238
01:00:37,676 --> 01:00:40,418
If you make a movie that
everybody considers as bad,

1239
01:00:40,470 --> 01:00:43,837
and it disappears
into no-man's-land immediately,

1240
01:00:43,890 --> 01:00:45,972
that's much worse, I think,

1241
01:00:46,017 --> 01:00:50,181
than being glorified
for the worst movie of the year.

1242
01:00:50,230 --> 01:00:52,516
I thank you very, very much!
Thank you!

1243
01:00:52,566 --> 01:00:54,807
Schmader: At the time,
it seemed really healthy,

1244
01:00:54,860 --> 01:00:56,396
and it made sense to me,

1245
01:00:56,444 --> 01:00:59,356
but with the defenses
that have come out lately,

1246
01:00:59,406 --> 01:01:01,738
it seems
a little more confusing.

1247
01:01:01,783 --> 01:01:04,525
I used a style

1248
01:01:04,578 --> 01:01:10,039
that probably is not so well
known in general, I would say.

1249
01:01:10,083 --> 01:01:12,324
The best comparison
would be to look at,

1250
01:01:12,377 --> 01:01:16,290
let's say, German paintings
of the '20s and '30s,

1251
01:01:16,339 --> 01:01:18,500
which is called
the expressionism.

1252
01:01:18,550 --> 01:01:21,257
That was perhaps difficult,
at that time,

1253
01:01:21,303 --> 01:01:24,966
to recognize that
as a possibility of filmmaking.

1254
01:01:25,015 --> 01:01:28,553
I mean, that's another theory.

1255
01:01:30,270 --> 01:01:31,760
You laugh. You don't believe me.

1256
01:01:31,813 --> 01:01:34,304
Well, I invented it yesterday.

1257
01:01:34,357 --> 01:01:36,097
I can't believe I bought it!

1258
01:01:36,151 --> 01:01:38,358
We'll celebrate.
I'll buy you a burrito.

1259
01:01:38,403 --> 01:01:41,190
I'll even buy you some fajitas.

1260
01:01:41,239 --> 01:01:42,900
Oh, fajita!

1261
01:01:42,949 --> 01:01:46,066
Nayman: Even in trying to write
about the relationship

1262
01:01:46,119 --> 01:01:47,780
between nomi and Molly

1263
01:01:47,829 --> 01:01:51,538
and the relationship
between nomi and cristal...

1264
01:01:51,583 --> 01:01:53,164
I got to go.

1265
01:01:53,210 --> 01:01:56,168
Aren't you gonna come here
and give me a big kiss?

1266
01:01:56,213 --> 01:02:00,297
Nayman: There's a queer line
that runs through the movie

1267
01:02:00,342 --> 01:02:02,833
and that runs through a lot
of reception to the movie

1268
01:02:02,886 --> 01:02:06,094
and that runs through
a lot of fandom.

1269
01:02:06,139 --> 01:02:07,617
Baume: The parallels
between "showgirls"

1270
01:02:07,641 --> 01:02:11,225
and the gay experience
are that nomi sets out

1271
01:02:11,269 --> 01:02:14,011
on her own to reinvent herself,
to set out into the world

1272
01:02:14,064 --> 01:02:16,350
and find the big city
and chase her dreams.

1273
01:02:16,399 --> 01:02:19,766
That is something that
a lot of queer people do.

1274
01:02:21,947 --> 01:02:23,608
They leave the small town.

1275
01:02:23,657 --> 01:02:25,635
They leave whatever unfortunate
circumstances are behind,

1276
01:02:25,659 --> 01:02:28,742
and they completely reinvent
themselves with a new name,

1277
01:02:28,787 --> 01:02:30,618
with a new identity,
with new dreams,

1278
01:02:30,664 --> 01:02:33,451
and so I think nomi's arrival
in Las Vegas

1279
01:02:33,500 --> 01:02:35,957
is something that
a lot of us have felt

1280
01:02:36,002 --> 01:02:37,788
when we arrive
in Las Vegas or New York

1281
01:02:37,837 --> 01:02:41,625
or Seattle or Chicago
or wherever we go.

1282
01:02:41,675 --> 01:02:43,631
Another reason
that nomi resonates is because

1283
01:02:43,677 --> 01:02:46,134
she is not afraid
to use her sexuality.

1284
01:02:46,179 --> 01:02:48,386
I liked it when you came.

1285
01:02:48,431 --> 01:02:51,343
Baume: She is starving
for sexual attention,

1286
01:02:51,393 --> 01:02:55,227
and she is unafraid
of using her sex as a tool.

1287
01:02:55,272 --> 01:02:56,540
That's something
that we very rarely see

1288
01:02:56,564 --> 01:02:58,270
with female characters.

1289
01:02:58,316 --> 01:03:01,729
Often they're victims, or they
don't realize their power,

1290
01:03:01,778 --> 01:03:03,234
or they're so innocent.

1291
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:05,145
For nomi,
sex is a means to an end.

1292
01:03:05,198 --> 01:03:06,938
I'm not saying
that it's a good thing,

1293
01:03:06,992 --> 01:03:08,970
and I'm not saying that that's
a healthy attitude to have,

1294
01:03:08,994 --> 01:03:11,986
but once again that's something
that is familiar

1295
01:03:12,038 --> 01:03:14,529
to gay men in their interactions
with each other

1296
01:03:14,582 --> 01:03:17,824
that I don't think straight men
or straight women

1297
01:03:17,877 --> 01:03:20,368
have experienced
in the same way.

1298
01:03:20,422 --> 01:03:23,164
Hey, stay with me.

1299
01:03:23,216 --> 01:03:27,425
Baume: Nomi has a chosen family
that she builds and looks after.

1300
01:03:27,470 --> 01:03:29,836
I'm not gonna say that it's
a healthy chosen family.

1301
01:03:29,889 --> 01:03:34,223
They all seem very fixated
on unhealthy sexual attention

1302
01:03:34,269 --> 01:03:36,976
with each other, but she's got
that chosen family,

1303
01:03:37,022 --> 01:03:38,637
and they look out
for each other.

1304
01:03:38,690 --> 01:03:40,626
That's one of the other reasons
that I think "showgirls"

1305
01:03:40,650 --> 01:03:42,265
resonates with gay men.

1306
01:03:42,319 --> 01:03:45,982
When one of her friends
is bashed, she bashes back.

1307
01:03:47,115 --> 01:03:48,946
And so that's a revenge fantasy

1308
01:03:48,992 --> 01:03:51,028
that a lot of queer people
have experienced,

1309
01:03:51,077 --> 01:03:54,069
that we've been victimized
by straight white men

1310
01:03:54,122 --> 01:03:57,080
who are in charge,
who are running the world,

1311
01:03:57,125 --> 01:03:59,332
and to realize
that we have power

1312
01:03:59,377 --> 01:04:02,665
and that we can derive power
from our sexuality as nomi does

1313
01:04:02,714 --> 01:04:05,581
is a very empowering message.

1314
01:04:07,719 --> 01:04:10,256
Schmader:
I'd been doing the screenings

1315
01:04:10,305 --> 01:04:13,297
and touring a bit
and finally came...

1316
01:04:13,350 --> 01:04:14,931
I was working at
the stranger newspaper,

1317
01:04:14,976 --> 01:04:16,432
and I came to work one day,

1318
01:04:16,478 --> 01:04:18,639
and there was
a voicemail message there

1319
01:04:18,688 --> 01:04:21,646
from somebody at mgm saying
I needed to call them back.

1320
01:04:21,691 --> 01:04:23,181
And I was absolutely sure

1321
01:04:23,234 --> 01:04:25,190
it was gonna be
the cease-and-desist order

1322
01:04:25,236 --> 01:04:27,192
that I'd been waiting for.

1323
01:04:27,238 --> 01:04:28,569
But it wasn't.

1324
01:04:28,615 --> 01:04:30,697
They were excited
about what I was doing,

1325
01:04:30,742 --> 01:04:33,279
and they invited me
to record the commentary

1326
01:04:33,328 --> 01:04:37,241
for the special edition
"showgirls" DVD.

1327
01:04:37,290 --> 01:04:39,326
And after that,
everything changed

1328
01:04:39,376 --> 01:04:41,662
because once I had
their vote of confidence,

1329
01:04:41,711 --> 01:04:43,417
they were happy with me touring.

1330
01:04:43,463 --> 01:04:46,330
Once they had a product
that they could sell

1331
01:04:46,383 --> 01:04:48,920
in this new framing
of "showgirls"

1332
01:04:48,968 --> 01:04:51,960
as not a hard-hitting,
sexy "raging bull"

1333
01:04:52,013 --> 01:04:54,129
like they tried
with the first launch.

1334
01:04:55,683 --> 01:04:56,968
So that was a shock.

1335
01:04:57,018 --> 01:04:58,849
I was ready
for a cease and desist,

1336
01:04:58,895 --> 01:05:01,932
and my "showgirls" thing would
have been six months of my life

1337
01:05:01,981 --> 01:05:03,846
instead of 20 years.

1338
01:05:19,332 --> 01:05:24,543
Sconce: In 2003, I was asked
to contribute to a special forum

1339
01:05:24,587 --> 01:05:27,454
on "showgirls"
in film quarterly,

1340
01:05:27,507 --> 01:05:29,463
and I was glad
to do so at that time

1341
01:05:29,509 --> 01:05:33,718
because by then my opinion
of the film had really changed.

1342
01:05:33,763 --> 01:05:35,253
I'll admit the first time
I saw it,

1343
01:05:35,306 --> 01:05:36,796
I thought that it was kind of

1344
01:05:36,850 --> 01:05:40,138
just a really confusing,
out-of-control film

1345
01:05:40,186 --> 01:05:42,177
that didn't make much sense.

1346
01:05:42,230 --> 01:05:45,722
But I think it's easy just to
sort of see it as a failed film.

1347
01:05:45,775 --> 01:05:47,515
What are you looking at, bitch?

1348
01:05:47,569 --> 01:05:49,088
All right, you guys. Let's go.
Let's move it.

1349
01:05:49,112 --> 01:05:50,352
Come on. Go, go, go, go.

1350
01:05:50,405 --> 01:05:52,521
J nanananalj

1351
01:05:52,574 --> 01:05:54,314
j ahh-ahh ahh-ahhh j

1352
01:05:54,367 --> 01:05:55,982
j nanananalj

1353
01:05:56,035 --> 01:05:57,805
sconce: But again, I think
that's because most people

1354
01:05:57,829 --> 01:06:00,195
come to the movies now
with this idea

1355
01:06:00,248 --> 01:06:03,456
that films have to be
realistic or naturalistic.

1356
01:06:04,586 --> 01:06:08,044
If you see it a second time,
you start to realize

1357
01:06:08,089 --> 01:06:13,129
that some of the scenes
are being performed and shot

1358
01:06:13,178 --> 01:06:18,298
in a way that is antirealist,
right, that they really...

1359
01:06:18,349 --> 01:06:21,216
There's something going on there
beyond kind of failed realism.

1360
01:06:24,189 --> 01:06:28,102
Once I kind of made the jump,
you know, the leap of faith

1361
01:06:28,151 --> 01:06:31,689
into the world that was
being created by that film,

1362
01:06:31,738 --> 01:06:34,525
I've just loved it ever since,
and not in a, you know,

1363
01:06:34,574 --> 01:06:36,690
camp sort of
"it's so bad it's good" way,

1364
01:06:36,743 --> 01:06:42,613
but as a really interesting
hyperstylized bit of filmmaking

1365
01:06:42,665 --> 01:06:46,999
you just don't see much
in modern Hollywood.

1366
01:06:50,924 --> 01:06:53,882
All right. Where are we headed?
You have to give me directions.

1367
01:06:54,844 --> 01:06:56,505
To your place.

1368
01:06:56,554 --> 01:06:59,887
Sconce: The scene that really
sort of made me realize

1369
01:06:59,933 --> 01:07:01,619
there's something else
going on in this film

1370
01:07:01,643 --> 01:07:03,634
that's much more interesting
than the film

1371
01:07:03,686 --> 01:07:06,143
I'd seen in my mind before

1372
01:07:06,189 --> 01:07:08,726
was the whole seduction scene

1373
01:07:08,775 --> 01:07:12,142
between Kyle maclachlan
and Elizabeth berkley...

1374
01:07:12,195 --> 01:07:13,776
The swimming pool scene.

1375
01:07:16,699 --> 01:07:19,281
And, you know, if you watch
this scene with an audience,

1376
01:07:19,327 --> 01:07:21,784
people just start laughing.

1377
01:07:21,829 --> 01:07:24,036
And I think it's obviously...
It's meant to be funny

1378
01:07:24,082 --> 01:07:27,495
because it is just...
Just crazy.

1379
01:07:30,213 --> 01:07:31,794
There is a certain cynicism,
I think,

1380
01:07:31,839 --> 01:07:33,295
in a lot of verhoeven's work,

1381
01:07:33,341 --> 01:07:35,707
in the kind of way
everybody in that scenario

1382
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:37,876
it just using each other
and performing

1383
01:07:37,929 --> 01:07:39,465
these different roles
to each other

1384
01:07:39,514 --> 01:07:42,972
and overperforming them,
how they're all essentially

1385
01:07:43,017 --> 01:07:45,599
just these kind of
two-dimensional

1386
01:07:45,645 --> 01:07:50,230
avatars of greed or avarice
or whatever.

1387
01:07:50,275 --> 01:07:52,516
Is this meant to be
a portrayal of sex,

1388
01:07:52,569 --> 01:07:55,436
or is this meant to be
a portrayal of acting?

1389
01:07:55,488 --> 01:07:58,104
Seeing as this is all being
staged in her attempts

1390
01:07:58,157 --> 01:07:59,863
to advance her career,

1391
01:07:59,909 --> 01:08:01,945
it's kind of the ultimate,
you know,

1392
01:08:01,995 --> 01:08:03,610
"was that real?
Was that not real?”

1393
01:08:03,663 --> 01:08:05,369
Kind of performance.

1394
01:08:06,416 --> 01:08:11,501
Nayman: The choreography in that
dolphin-fountain sex scene

1395
01:08:11,546 --> 01:08:14,538
so mirrors nomi's lap dance,

1396
01:08:14,591 --> 01:08:17,424
you know, for Kyle maclachlan's
character at the cheetah.

1397
01:08:17,468 --> 01:08:18,958
There it was,
"look, don't touch."

1398
01:08:19,012 --> 01:08:21,549
Now it's actual sort of sex.

1399
01:08:21,598 --> 01:08:23,509
There's an idea of a barrier
between them

1400
01:08:23,558 --> 01:08:25,094
that's kind of been broken.

1401
01:08:25,143 --> 01:08:27,179
You know, she's kind of
in his house now.

1402
01:08:27,228 --> 01:08:30,061
He was in her establishment
earlier,

1403
01:08:30,106 --> 01:08:31,971
and the sort of warm-up,

1404
01:08:32,025 --> 01:08:34,767
like, the sex that she had faked
with him before

1405
01:08:34,819 --> 01:08:36,797
has kind of become real,
but this isn't making love.

1406
01:08:36,821 --> 01:08:39,358
I mean, this is a transaction
as much as anything else.

1407
01:08:39,407 --> 01:08:41,022
This is so she can be
in the show

1408
01:08:41,075 --> 01:08:44,317
and sort of replace cristal
and shore up her place

1409
01:08:44,370 --> 01:08:46,952
within that hierarchy
in the stardust.

1410
01:08:46,998 --> 01:08:48,204
The film's view of the world

1411
01:08:48,249 --> 01:08:49,785
is someone is always
on their way up,

1412
01:08:49,834 --> 01:08:54,419
and someone is kind of
always on their way down.

1413
01:08:54,464 --> 01:08:56,000
You guys, let me through!

1414
01:08:56,049 --> 01:08:57,664
Oh, my god.

1415
01:08:57,717 --> 01:08:59,612
Schmader: After the pool scene,
I stopped and asked

1416
01:08:59,636 --> 01:09:01,297
how many straight men
are in the audience,

1417
01:09:01,346 --> 01:09:02,882
and how many lesbians,

1418
01:09:02,930 --> 01:09:05,512
and if anyone is even close
to being turned on,

1419
01:09:05,558 --> 01:09:07,139
and the answer is always no.

1420
01:09:13,274 --> 01:09:14,889
A great question
about "showgirls"

1421
01:09:14,942 --> 01:09:19,026
is how it wound up being
the least sexy movie ever made.

1422
01:09:19,072 --> 01:09:20,528
This is another motif.

1423
01:09:20,573 --> 01:09:22,109
There's a point
when cristal Connors

1424
01:09:22,158 --> 01:09:24,865
pulls down nomi's shirt,
and her boobs are out again.

1425
01:09:28,790 --> 01:09:30,430
And they try to play it
like a big reveal,

1426
01:09:30,458 --> 01:09:31,948
and it's like,
"hello, old friends."

1427
01:09:32,001 --> 01:09:33,707
We've been...
Like, you cannot...

1428
01:09:33,753 --> 01:09:35,994
Her boobs have been out
for an hour and a half by then.

1429
01:09:36,047 --> 01:09:37,537
You cannot play it
for a big reveal

1430
01:09:37,590 --> 01:09:39,455
that she is now
showing her boobs.

1431
01:09:41,552 --> 01:09:45,261
Kidwell: I think Paul verhoeven,
with his history,

1432
01:09:45,306 --> 01:09:47,718
the way
that he directs actresses,

1433
01:09:47,767 --> 01:09:51,885
it's more scary
than actually sexy.

1434
01:09:51,938 --> 01:09:54,600
Woman: Six, seven, eight...

1435
01:09:54,649 --> 01:09:55,809
It's all stereotypes.

1436
01:09:55,858 --> 01:09:57,519
All the characters
are stereotypes.

1437
01:09:57,568 --> 01:09:59,900
And the white males
are fucking creeps,

1438
01:09:59,946 --> 01:10:01,436
or they're gay.

1439
01:10:01,489 --> 01:10:04,401
- Nice dress.
- Thanks, it's a "versayce."

1440
01:10:04,450 --> 01:10:07,317
- Woman: It's a what?
- "Versayce."

1441
01:10:07,370 --> 01:10:11,613
- A what?
- "Versayce," bitch.

1442
01:10:11,666 --> 01:10:14,078
Kidwell: Absolutely you can be
both a feminist

1443
01:10:14,127 --> 01:10:17,119
and a fan of "showgirls."

1444
01:10:17,171 --> 01:10:21,380
We had such a magical time
making "showgirls! The musical!"

1445
01:10:21,426 --> 01:10:26,295
And it was a hit, and we played
at three different homes.

1446
01:10:26,347 --> 01:10:30,886
Hello, Las Vegas!
I'm nomi Malone!

1447
01:10:30,935 --> 01:10:34,769
Kidwell: We were so incredibly
well received in New York,

1448
01:10:34,814 --> 01:10:37,396
but in San Francisco, it was...

1449
01:10:37,442 --> 01:10:43,108
We got full standing ovations
I think almost every night.

1450
01:10:44,115 --> 01:10:47,403
What I do in "showgirls,"
taking my top off,

1451
01:10:47,452 --> 01:10:48,942
performing on stage
wearing a thong,

1452
01:10:48,995 --> 01:10:50,610
it's the most empowering thing.

1453
01:10:50,663 --> 01:10:53,370
Getting up in people's faces
with my boobs,

1454
01:10:53,416 --> 01:10:56,408
it's empowering,
and it's, like, I'm on stage,

1455
01:10:56,461 --> 01:10:58,452
and I'm the bravest person
in this room

1456
01:10:58,504 --> 01:10:59,982
because I'm the one
who's naked up here

1457
01:11:00,006 --> 01:11:02,588
and singing and dancing
and having fun,

1458
01:11:02,633 --> 01:11:06,296
and I feel like I'm, you know,
a part of a sisterhood

1459
01:11:06,345 --> 01:11:08,176
and supporting, you know,

1460
01:11:08,222 --> 01:11:12,716
Elizabeth berkley's choices
in "showgirls," the film,

1461
01:11:12,769 --> 01:11:14,830
by getting up and saying,
"hey, I'm gonna do it, too.

1462
01:11:14,854 --> 01:11:17,561
What do y'all got to say?"

1463
01:11:17,607 --> 01:11:19,768
Molly:
Got any family you can call?

1464
01:11:19,817 --> 01:11:22,149
I don't have any family.

1465
01:11:22,195 --> 01:11:24,481
Any friends?

1466
01:11:24,530 --> 01:11:27,522
I don't have any friends.

1467
01:11:27,575 --> 01:11:29,566
So where are you from?

1468
01:11:33,289 --> 01:11:35,871
Different places!

1469
01:11:35,917 --> 01:11:40,001
Kidwell: Nomi's introduction to
Vegas is what I would imagine

1470
01:11:40,046 --> 01:11:41,661
would be pretty standard
for most...

1471
01:11:41,714 --> 01:11:44,000
For a lot of people
of that age, you know,

1472
01:11:44,050 --> 01:11:46,587
but she's also a special case
because she's the kind of broad

1473
01:11:46,636 --> 01:11:49,423
who walks around with a chip
on her shoulder,

1474
01:11:50,973 --> 01:11:53,885
and she's a magnet to trouble.

1475
01:11:53,935 --> 01:11:58,269
That was not my case,
being a 16-year-old mormon girl

1476
01:11:58,314 --> 01:12:00,726
just coming to Vegas so...

1477
01:12:00,775 --> 01:12:02,515
Nearest family members?

1478
01:12:02,568 --> 01:12:05,184
Kidwell: I don't have a good
relationship with my parents.

1479
01:12:05,238 --> 01:12:07,820
You know,
I'm legally disowned and...

1480
01:12:07,865 --> 01:12:09,526
- Deceased?
Kidwell: Felt like a...

1481
01:12:09,575 --> 01:12:10,781
Yes.

1482
01:12:10,827 --> 01:12:13,569
Kidwell.:
A street rat for a while.

1483
01:12:15,039 --> 01:12:16,529
I love this film.

1484
01:12:16,582 --> 01:12:21,372
I love it for strange,
unexpected reasons.

1485
01:12:21,420 --> 01:12:23,001
It's kind of a hero's journey

1486
01:12:23,047 --> 01:12:26,335
in the most unlikely
of protagonists.

1487
01:12:26,384 --> 01:12:29,797
It's like, "oh, god!"
It's like a lamp goes up, yeah?

1488
01:12:29,846 --> 01:12:33,009
Kidwell: Paul verhoeven had
his own vision of the film.

1489
01:12:33,057 --> 01:12:35,514
It makes for juicy,
dramatic storytelling,

1490
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:36,912
but when you're
actually living it,

1491
01:12:36,936 --> 01:12:39,769
it's a nauseating feeling.

1492
01:12:41,774 --> 01:12:46,814
In 2011, I ended up in New York,

1493
01:12:46,863 --> 01:12:52,233
bright-eyed and bushy-tailed
and ready to become a star.

1494
01:12:52,285 --> 01:12:57,450
And so I was working for a while
as a karaoke dj and just,

1495
01:12:57,498 --> 01:13:02,618
you know, New York story,
barely scraping by, but happy.

1496
01:13:02,670 --> 01:13:04,501
When I was working
as a karaoke dj,

1497
01:13:04,547 --> 01:13:08,711
I got drugged by a lone patron,
the last patron of the night,

1498
01:13:08,759 --> 01:13:12,047
and he took me home,
and he raped me.

1499
01:13:19,645 --> 01:13:21,260
And destroyed my world,

1500
01:13:21,314 --> 01:13:24,932
and I had crippling PTSD,

1501
01:13:24,984 --> 01:13:27,270
and I didn't have the services
to support myself.

1502
01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:30,312
I was living off of savings
that were draining.

1503
01:13:30,364 --> 01:13:33,276
I eventually got evicted.

1504
01:13:33,326 --> 01:13:35,692
I was not able to work.
I couldn't function.

1505
01:13:35,745 --> 01:13:37,701
I had stopped speaking
for a few months.

1506
01:13:37,747 --> 01:13:40,204
After that happened, I lost,
like, 10 pounds in a week.

1507
01:13:40,249 --> 01:13:42,956
It was horrifying,
and I couldn't afford

1508
01:13:43,002 --> 01:13:45,869
the medication that I needed,
and it was bad.

1509
01:13:45,922 --> 01:13:47,833
And so then I had a boyfriend
at that time

1510
01:13:47,882 --> 01:13:51,215
who was so benevolent
and such an angel,

1511
01:13:51,260 --> 01:13:54,798
and he saw a post
for "bayside! The musical!"

1512
01:13:54,847 --> 01:13:58,055
The audition for it, and he...

1513
01:13:58,100 --> 01:14:00,466
I remember him holding my hand
and telling me,

1514
01:14:00,519 --> 01:14:03,226
"I would be really proud of you
if you went to this audition."

1515
01:14:04,607 --> 01:14:06,268
So I did.

1516
01:14:06,317 --> 01:14:10,310
And I sang a song about
molestation that I made up,

1517
01:14:10,363 --> 01:14:13,400
and everybody laughed,
and I got it.

1518
01:14:13,449 --> 01:14:15,940
I got Jessie spano.

1519
01:14:15,993 --> 01:14:20,828
J bayside high j

1520
01:14:20,873 --> 01:14:24,161
because my character,
Jessie spano,

1521
01:14:24,210 --> 01:14:26,826
was addicted to caffeine pills

1522
01:14:26,879 --> 01:14:29,040
and having panic attacks
on stage,

1523
01:14:29,090 --> 01:14:32,298
my whole role was just, like,
a meltdown... crazy-time.

1524
01:14:32,343 --> 01:14:34,379
It's about Jessie.

1525
01:14:40,351 --> 01:14:43,013
I think that she's been
taking drugs.

1526
01:14:43,062 --> 01:14:46,304
Zack: Drugs? Are you crazy?

1527
01:14:46,357 --> 01:14:50,851
Kidwell: It was miraculously
a very cathartic

1528
01:14:50,903 --> 01:14:52,609
artistic experience for me.

1529
01:14:52,655 --> 01:14:54,270
I was able to channel
my panic attacks

1530
01:14:54,323 --> 01:14:56,439
I was having
in my personal life,

1531
01:14:56,492 --> 01:14:59,984
dealing with living with PTSD...

1532
01:15:01,038 --> 01:15:01,948
Jessie!

1533
01:15:01,998 --> 01:15:09,998
J I'm so excited! J

1534
01:15:14,844 --> 01:15:19,258
I'm so scared.

1535
01:15:19,306 --> 01:15:21,547
Kidwell:
And channel that on stage

1536
01:15:21,600 --> 01:15:23,716
and just let it go
and work it out

1537
01:15:23,769 --> 01:15:25,414
'cause I couldn't afford
a therapist at the time.

1538
01:15:25,438 --> 01:15:26,623
I did three years
without therapy,

1539
01:15:26,647 --> 01:15:28,262
so doing "bayside!"

1540
01:15:28,315 --> 01:15:30,476
Was my first step with therapy.

1541
01:15:39,326 --> 01:15:40,657
Schmader: Shifting tones

1542
01:15:40,703 --> 01:15:43,069
is a big distinct fact
of "showgirls,"

1543
01:15:43,122 --> 01:15:44,783
where you think
you're watching a comedy,

1544
01:15:44,832 --> 01:15:46,143
and then you're watching
a weird drama,

1545
01:15:46,167 --> 01:15:47,686
and then you're
watching something sexy,

1546
01:15:47,710 --> 01:15:48,979
and you're watching
something gross...

1547
01:15:49,003 --> 01:15:51,164
Um, Molly is
one of your biggest fans.

1548
01:15:51,213 --> 01:15:54,080
Well, then,
let me get you a drink.

1549
01:15:54,133 --> 01:15:56,465
Schmader:
And with the rape scene,

1550
01:15:56,510 --> 01:15:58,375
the tone shifts really abruptly

1551
01:15:58,429 --> 01:16:04,925
to hard-core, second-to-second
depiction of a sexual assault,

1552
01:16:04,977 --> 01:16:08,060
like the way
that "the accused” had,

1553
01:16:08,105 --> 01:16:11,063
but "the accused”
spent 90 boring minutes

1554
01:16:11,108 --> 01:16:14,271
setting up the foundation
to earn that scene,

1555
01:16:14,320 --> 01:16:17,483
and in "showgirls" it just
doesn't seem earned at all.

1556
01:16:17,531 --> 01:16:19,863
What's going on?

1557
01:16:19,909 --> 01:16:22,275
Schmader: I tell the audience
what happens, like,

1558
01:16:22,328 --> 01:16:24,284
"in this scene,
for some reason, Molly Abrams,

1559
01:16:24,330 --> 01:16:26,662
the only decent human
in the film,

1560
01:16:26,707 --> 01:16:30,120
is brutally beaten and
gang-raped with no motivation,

1561
01:16:30,169 --> 01:16:32,034
and we're going to skip it."

1562
01:16:36,217 --> 01:16:37,944
Mlotek: "Showgirls" never misses
an opportunity

1563
01:16:37,968 --> 01:16:41,005
to crucify a woman when it can,
and it's sort of like,

1564
01:16:41,055 --> 01:16:45,469
watching it, "what's the point?
What are you trying to say?

1565
01:16:45,518 --> 01:16:46,803
What are you trying to tell us?"

1566
01:16:46,852 --> 01:16:48,308
And with Paul verhoeven
especially,

1567
01:16:48,354 --> 01:16:49,623
when you look at a movie
like "showgirls,"

1568
01:16:49,647 --> 01:16:51,262
where he's like,

1569
01:16:51,315 --> 01:16:53,681
"oh, you guys are so titillated
by sexual violence.

1570
01:16:53,734 --> 01:16:55,565
I'm going to show you
real sexual violence.

1571
01:16:55,611 --> 01:16:56,976
Then you'll know how bad it is.”

1572
01:16:57,029 --> 01:16:59,145
It's like,
"who are you talking to?"

1573
01:16:59,198 --> 01:17:02,235
Because you're certainly
not talking to the women

1574
01:17:02,284 --> 01:17:04,821
who are watching this movie,
because we know.

1575
01:17:04,870 --> 01:17:07,156
You're talking as a man
who is both convinced

1576
01:17:07,206 --> 01:17:09,948
that you have never been
a perpetrator of sexual violence

1577
01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:12,742
or that you know any
perpetrators of sexual violence,

1578
01:17:12,795 --> 01:17:15,753
which is misogyny at its worst,

1579
01:17:15,798 --> 01:17:18,881
this insidious belief
that bad men hide in the shadows

1580
01:17:18,926 --> 01:17:21,258
and comprise less than 1%
of the population,

1581
01:17:21,303 --> 01:17:22,656
that you'll never
really meet them,

1582
01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:24,671
and so you need a film
like "showgirls"

1583
01:17:24,723 --> 01:17:28,557
to show you what evil
can actually look like.

1584
01:17:39,738 --> 01:17:42,980
Schmader: The worst violence
in the movie happens to her,

1585
01:17:43,033 --> 01:17:44,614
and it's like her brutalization

1586
01:17:44,660 --> 01:17:47,868
becomes nomi's opportunity
to redeem herself.

1587
01:17:47,913 --> 01:17:49,449
Is she okay?

1588
01:17:49,498 --> 01:17:50,498
She's okay.

1589
01:17:50,541 --> 01:17:51,781
Schmader: What you can see

1590
01:17:51,834 --> 01:17:53,699
is a kind of
interracial solidarity...

1591
01:17:53,752 --> 01:17:55,162
I love you.

1592
01:17:55,212 --> 01:17:57,052
Schmader: Or even a kind of
class solidarity

1593
01:17:57,089 --> 01:17:58,499
or feminist solidarity,

1594
01:17:58,549 --> 01:18:01,336
or it's just the rankest
kind of exploitation.

1595
01:18:01,385 --> 01:18:03,592
Sconce:
Paul verhoeven seems to obsessed

1596
01:18:03,637 --> 01:18:07,380
with violent sexual scenes
or rape scenes

1597
01:18:07,433 --> 01:18:11,096
because they appear
in many of his films.

1598
01:18:17,568 --> 01:18:18,933
Aaah!

1599
01:18:24,283 --> 01:18:25,886
Mlotek: Look, there's no other
way to say this,

1600
01:18:25,910 --> 01:18:28,117
but the one place
I think that succeeds...

1601
01:18:28,162 --> 01:18:31,154
Ew, I'm sorry...
Is in "robocop,"

1602
01:18:31,207 --> 01:18:33,789
where it is played for such
a straightforward laugh

1603
01:18:33,834 --> 01:18:37,247
in that the most obvious form
of justice

1604
01:18:37,296 --> 01:18:40,914
for an attempted rape
is a literal castration.

1605
01:18:42,259 --> 01:18:43,749
Aah!

1606
01:18:43,802 --> 01:18:46,009
Mlotek: Yes, that's how a robot
who had the brain

1607
01:18:46,055 --> 01:18:51,049
of a former Detroit police
officer would think of it.

1608
01:18:55,147 --> 01:18:56,432
Aah!

1609
01:19:04,782 --> 01:19:06,943
I like you better topless.

1610
01:19:08,077 --> 01:19:11,160
Wait till you see me bottomless.

1611
01:19:11,205 --> 01:19:14,914
Mlotek: I think a lot about the
scene at the end of the movie

1612
01:19:14,959 --> 01:19:19,077
where nomi somehow gets revenge
by beating up Andrew carver,

1613
01:19:19,129 --> 01:19:21,541
and that's presented
as though it's empowering,

1614
01:19:21,590 --> 01:19:24,457
and I find that to be, like,
the most cynical thing...

1615
01:19:25,511 --> 01:19:28,674
Next time,
I'll fucking kill you.

1616
01:19:29,848 --> 01:19:32,806
Mlotek: That a woman
would find real justice

1617
01:19:32,851 --> 01:19:34,933
in handing out more pain...

1618
01:19:38,148 --> 01:19:39,558
Because she knows that there are

1619
01:19:39,608 --> 01:19:43,021
no structures of justice
available to her.

1620
01:19:44,571 --> 01:19:46,186
That's not misogyny itself.

1621
01:19:46,240 --> 01:19:48,481
That's just a depiction
of the way misogyny works.

1622
01:19:48,534 --> 01:19:50,720
But it is extremely cynical
that we are supposed to see that

1623
01:19:50,744 --> 01:19:53,702
as triumph in some sense,
for either character,

1624
01:19:53,747 --> 01:19:55,738
for nomi or for Molly.

1625
01:19:57,001 --> 01:19:58,832
Fuck off!

1626
01:19:59,586 --> 01:20:02,168
J it's a fine line j

1627
01:20:02,214 --> 01:20:07,584
j between a whore
and a warrior j

1628
01:20:07,636 --> 01:20:09,843
kidwell: What makes up
for the rape scene in the film

1629
01:20:09,888 --> 01:20:12,595
is nomi's revenge.

1630
01:20:12,641 --> 01:20:16,634
J nobody knows me j

1631
01:20:16,687 --> 01:20:18,973
kidwell.: It's my favorite scene
in the musical.

1632
01:20:19,023 --> 01:20:21,355
The song is called "whorrior!"

1633
01:20:21,400 --> 01:20:23,561
A whore and a warrior combined.

1634
01:20:25,738 --> 01:20:27,854
J the whorrior j

1635
01:20:27,906 --> 01:20:30,818
it's like a whore
and a warrior combined!

1636
01:20:37,666 --> 01:20:43,332
J 'cause I'm... I'm a whorrior j

1637
01:20:46,342 --> 01:20:48,674
kidwell:
Every Lyric, every note,

1638
01:20:48,719 --> 01:20:50,550
every roundhouse kick

1639
01:20:50,596 --> 01:20:55,215
is therapeutic,
cathartic, just joy...

1640
01:20:55,267 --> 01:20:58,509
Nomi: Fucker! Fuck off!

1641
01:20:58,562 --> 01:21:00,598
Kidwell: And that is my song.

1642
01:21:00,647 --> 01:21:03,104
J whorrior j

1643
01:21:03,150 --> 01:21:04,811
kidwell: I carry it with me.

1644
01:21:04,860 --> 01:21:07,897
J that's like a whore
and a warrior combined j

1645
01:21:07,946 --> 01:21:10,278
kidwell.: It's positive
and powerful and weird

1646
01:21:10,324 --> 01:21:13,191
having that protagonist

1647
01:21:13,243 --> 01:21:16,952
as actually a character
that's so cathartic

1648
01:21:16,997 --> 01:21:20,660
and helped me move
to my best self

1649
01:21:20,709 --> 01:21:24,952
and my new life
that's actually really happy

1650
01:21:25,005 --> 01:21:28,543
and joyous and healthy
and positive and supportive

1651
01:21:28,592 --> 01:21:31,254
and all the good things
people want in life.

1652
01:21:34,223 --> 01:21:35,700
Nayman: We all of us
have this relationship

1653
01:21:35,724 --> 01:21:37,009
to artists we admire.

1654
01:21:37,059 --> 01:21:38,674
As a critic, you have
to be careful

1655
01:21:38,727 --> 01:21:40,342
because you're not
writing for them,

1656
01:21:40,396 --> 01:21:43,138
and you need
to remain objective.

1657
01:21:43,190 --> 01:21:45,460
You know, I didn't write this
book so the director of the film

1658
01:21:45,484 --> 01:21:48,100
I'm writing about
could sort of like it.

1659
01:21:48,153 --> 01:21:52,271
The fact that he did, and that
we had some pretty interesting,

1660
01:21:52,324 --> 01:21:54,986
serious, long conversations
about that film

1661
01:21:55,035 --> 01:21:58,072
and other things and...
It's really nice.

1662
01:22:05,671 --> 01:22:08,754
That he went out of his way
to be in touch

1663
01:22:08,799 --> 01:22:13,008
because the film is described
in the book as being good.

1664
01:22:13,053 --> 01:22:14,668
I mean, I don't think
in retrospect

1665
01:22:14,721 --> 01:22:16,177
he finds all of this to be

1666
01:22:16,223 --> 01:22:18,839
like a fascinating
learning experience

1667
01:22:18,892 --> 01:22:21,429
about changing tastes and stuff.

1668
01:22:21,478 --> 01:22:23,969
He made "starship troopers”
after because the machinery

1669
01:22:24,022 --> 01:22:27,014
had already been moving to make
a big special effects film,

1670
01:22:27,067 --> 01:22:29,854
and he made "hollow man,"
and that's it, you know?

1671
01:22:29,903 --> 01:22:32,269
"Black book" and "tricked"
and "Elle"

1672
01:22:32,322 --> 01:22:35,029
are all made in Europe.

1673
01:22:57,556 --> 01:22:59,200
Schmader: I did an interview
with Kyle maclachlan.

1674
01:22:59,224 --> 01:23:01,135
I was film editor
for the stranger,

1675
01:23:01,185 --> 01:23:03,267
and he was here
for being honored

1676
01:23:03,312 --> 01:23:06,099
at Seattle international film
festival for his body of work,

1677
01:23:06,148 --> 01:23:08,376
and I did an interview with him,
and I wasn't gonna be the jerk

1678
01:23:08,400 --> 01:23:10,015
who brought up "showgirls,"
but he did.

1679
01:23:10,068 --> 01:23:11,649
I don't think
he knows about this,

1680
01:23:11,695 --> 01:23:14,027
about what we have
going on here,

1681
01:23:14,072 --> 01:23:16,859
but he was ready to talk about
"showgirls" on his own,

1682
01:23:16,909 --> 01:23:19,821
and he held forth on,
"no, we were making a drama.

1683
01:23:19,870 --> 01:23:23,738
We were directed
to huge, outsized emotions

1684
01:23:23,790 --> 01:23:25,977
while trying to make this drama,
and we just followed it."

1685
01:23:26,001 --> 01:23:28,458
And he wanted me to take away
the moral of, like,

1686
01:23:28,504 --> 01:23:32,463
"do not believe that any of us
on that crew or cast

1687
01:23:32,508 --> 01:23:36,092
thought we were making anything
except a hard-hitting drama."

1688
01:23:41,183 --> 01:23:43,299
Conway: So in an effort
to answer my...

1689
01:23:43,352 --> 01:23:45,593
One of my own question about

1690
01:23:45,646 --> 01:23:49,685
what was Elizabeth berkley's
experience in real life like,

1691
01:23:49,733 --> 01:23:51,815
having to deal with
the aftermath

1692
01:23:51,860 --> 01:23:55,227
of what I call the critical
devastation that she was handed

1693
01:23:55,280 --> 01:23:58,147
after the release
of "showgirls,"

1694
01:23:58,200 --> 01:23:59,861
I started to go
onto the Internet

1695
01:23:59,910 --> 01:24:02,026
and do searches
for her appearances,

1696
01:24:02,079 --> 01:24:03,615
and the first one I found

1697
01:24:03,664 --> 01:24:06,280
was an appearance
on "handmade modern"...

1698
01:24:06,333 --> 01:24:08,093
- Oldham: Come on out, Elizabeth.
- Hi, Todd.

1699
01:24:08,126 --> 01:24:09,582
- Yay!
- How are you?

1700
01:24:09,628 --> 01:24:11,243
Conway: In 2005.

1701
01:24:11,296 --> 01:24:13,708
That was an hgtv show
hosted by Todd oldham.

1702
01:24:13,757 --> 01:24:15,588
You just see him salivating.

1703
01:24:15,634 --> 01:24:18,501
You just know he's dying to
go there, and finally he does.

1704
01:24:18,554 --> 01:24:20,385
I've never done string art.

1705
01:24:20,430 --> 01:24:22,367
I know you've had a couple of
costumes about this big, but...

1706
01:24:22,391 --> 01:24:24,598
Yeah, about that big.
That's about it.

1707
01:24:24,643 --> 01:24:26,179
It's funny
because that movie, yeah,

1708
01:24:26,228 --> 01:24:28,184
it definitely was met
with a lot of controversy

1709
01:24:28,230 --> 01:24:32,564
when it initially came out,
and then, funny enough,

1710
01:24:32,609 --> 01:24:34,440
it has found
this interesting little life,

1711
01:24:34,486 --> 01:24:37,398
like this either
cult kind of favorite, you know?

1712
01:24:37,447 --> 01:24:39,688
Because again, like,
if something doesn't do well,

1713
01:24:39,741 --> 01:24:41,135
it can just die
on some video shelf,

1714
01:24:41,159 --> 01:24:42,774
you never hear about it.

1715
01:24:42,828 --> 01:24:45,240
It strangely found
this interesting...

1716
01:24:45,289 --> 01:24:47,245
Interesting life
after that, so...

1717
01:24:47,291 --> 01:24:50,203
Conway: So there's some
recognition there that it was,

1718
01:24:50,252 --> 01:24:54,621
in fact, a bomb,
but almost a little sweet that,

1719
01:24:54,673 --> 01:24:56,880
you know, people are
still talking about it.

1720
01:24:56,925 --> 01:24:58,790
Of course, she doesn't
really go on about

1721
01:24:58,844 --> 01:25:00,380
how they're talking about it,

1722
01:25:00,429 --> 01:25:02,590
but at least
it's being talked about.

1723
01:25:02,639 --> 01:25:05,631
In 2008, she appeared
with Chelsea handler

1724
01:25:05,684 --> 01:25:07,094
on her talk show...

1725
01:25:07,144 --> 01:25:08,850
Let's move on
to "showgirls," though,

1726
01:25:08,895 --> 01:25:10,248
because I know that
that was, like,

1727
01:25:10,272 --> 01:25:12,513
one hot mess of a movie, okay?

1728
01:25:12,566 --> 01:25:13,566
It was.

1729
01:25:13,609 --> 01:25:14,940
Conway: And it seems like

1730
01:25:14,985 --> 01:25:17,692
the first time
that I could find that,

1731
01:25:17,738 --> 01:25:20,650
on TV, somebody sort of crosses
the line and points out

1732
01:25:20,699 --> 01:25:24,191
that the movie was actually
a mess in front of her.

1733
01:25:24,244 --> 01:25:26,610
And then Elizabeth
pieces together

1734
01:25:26,663 --> 01:25:28,745
this alternate reading
of the film,

1735
01:25:28,790 --> 01:25:30,621
which I think is brilliant.

1736
01:25:30,667 --> 01:25:32,828
It's this kind of
just over-the-top, fun movie,

1737
01:25:32,878 --> 01:25:34,743
which is what it was
intended to be,

1738
01:25:34,796 --> 01:25:38,004
and now people have really found
the fun in it.

1739
01:25:38,050 --> 01:25:41,668
Conway: It was intended
as a fun, over-the-top movie.

1740
01:25:41,720 --> 01:25:43,426
I just thought
that was brilliant,

1741
01:25:43,472 --> 01:25:48,842
to start retelling the story
of what this film is,

1742
01:25:48,894 --> 01:25:52,182
has been to so many people,
so, good for her.

1743
01:25:52,230 --> 01:25:53,686
You got a lot
of heat for that movie.

1744
01:25:53,732 --> 01:25:55,017
Berkley: It was hard.

1745
01:25:55,067 --> 01:25:56,336
It was hard
when it first came out,

1746
01:25:56,360 --> 01:25:57,795
and I had to really deal
with it on my own

1747
01:25:57,819 --> 01:25:59,380
because no one really
came to my defense,

1748
01:25:59,404 --> 01:26:03,147
which was really painful
at a really young age.

1749
01:26:20,467 --> 01:26:21,923
Conway:
At the end of "showgirls,"

1750
01:26:21,968 --> 01:26:23,799
when nomi heads to Los Angeles,

1751
01:26:23,845 --> 01:26:28,384
maybe nomi marries the nephew
of one of the richest designers

1752
01:26:28,433 --> 01:26:30,719
who was ever on this planet

1753
01:26:30,769 --> 01:26:33,556
and has a child
and lives in Beverly Hills

1754
01:26:33,605 --> 01:26:34,640
and becomes a vegetarian.

1755
01:26:34,690 --> 01:26:35,896
I don't know.

1756
01:26:35,941 --> 01:26:38,227
Zack: Hey, babe.
You ready to drive?

1757
01:26:38,276 --> 01:26:40,483
Jessie: Yeah, uh-huh.
What is that?

1758
01:26:40,529 --> 01:26:42,736
- They're drive pills.
- Drive pills?

1759
01:26:42,781 --> 01:26:44,988
J I'm so excited j

1760
01:26:45,033 --> 01:26:46,819
baume: I know that
Elizabeth berkley

1761
01:26:46,868 --> 01:26:48,984
recently made fun
of her "saved by the bell"

1762
01:26:49,037 --> 01:26:51,119
"I'm so excited, I'm so excited,
I'm so scared,”

1763
01:26:51,164 --> 01:26:52,620
on "dancing with the stars."

1764
01:26:52,666 --> 01:26:54,827
J I'm so excited j

1765
01:26:54,876 --> 01:26:56,832
j and I just can't hide it j

1766
01:26:56,878 --> 01:26:58,539
j no, no, no, no j

1767
01:26:58,588 --> 01:27:00,858
I would love to see her enjoying
all the love and attention

1768
01:27:00,882 --> 01:27:04,500
that she's gotten from
camp audiences for "showgirls."

1769
01:27:09,808 --> 01:27:14,222
Wyatt: In the 20-year history
of the film "showgirls,"

1770
01:27:14,271 --> 01:27:16,353
there has never, ever been

1771
01:27:16,398 --> 01:27:20,186
so large an assemblage of people
to see this film.

1772
01:27:20,235 --> 01:27:22,647
I think we should have someone
who worked on the film

1773
01:27:22,696 --> 01:27:23,981
say a few words.

1774
01:27:32,414 --> 01:27:34,075
Schmader:
I love that she showed up

1775
01:27:34,124 --> 01:27:36,206
for that Hollywood forever
screening in L.A.

1776
01:27:36,251 --> 01:27:38,037
And introduced the film.

1777
01:27:40,881 --> 01:27:42,872
I understand she got
a standing ovation.

1778
01:27:44,050 --> 01:27:45,586
Can I do your nails sometime?

1779
01:27:45,635 --> 01:27:48,377
Man: Yes, mama!

1780
01:27:48,430 --> 01:27:51,922
Schmader: I'm so glad that she
can plug into this second life.

1781
01:27:53,018 --> 01:27:55,725
This is such a special night.
You don't even know.

1782
01:27:55,771 --> 01:27:57,682
This is 20 years in the making.

1783
01:27:57,731 --> 01:27:59,471
I can't believe I'm here
with you.

1784
01:27:59,524 --> 01:28:01,480
4,000 people.

1785
01:28:01,526 --> 01:28:05,644
Tonight is like this magical
full-circle moment

1786
01:28:05,697 --> 01:28:08,313
where I actually
didn't get to experience

1787
01:28:08,366 --> 01:28:12,029
the sweetness of a screening
with a crowd that embraced it.

1788
01:28:13,705 --> 01:28:16,321
I'm gonna send you off
to enjoy this amazing night,

1789
01:28:16,374 --> 01:28:18,160
but I'm gonna just do
one thing for you.

1790
01:28:18,210 --> 01:28:20,417
Woman: Uh-oh! Man: Yes!

1791
01:28:28,094 --> 01:28:30,130
Let the show begin.

1792
01:28:31,389 --> 01:28:32,575
Schmader:
There's a sense of, like,

1793
01:28:32,599 --> 01:28:34,590
who's right about "showgirls"...

1794
01:28:34,643 --> 01:28:36,349
The people who think
it's a terrible joke,

1795
01:28:36,394 --> 01:28:38,414
or the people who think it's
a misunderstood masterpiece?

1796
01:28:38,438 --> 01:28:42,306
And it's, like, we're all right.
It's a dream.

1797
01:28:42,359 --> 01:28:43,795
Nayman:
It's been redeemed commercially.

1798
01:28:43,819 --> 01:28:46,356
It's been reclaimed
artistically.

1799
01:28:46,404 --> 01:28:49,191
It's been sort of reconciled
by the person who made it

1800
01:28:49,241 --> 01:28:51,607
with some of the people
he made it with,

1801
01:28:51,660 --> 01:28:53,321
and I think that "showgirls"

1802
01:28:53,370 --> 01:28:57,864
is a film
that you cannot give it its due

1803
01:28:57,916 --> 01:29:02,125
by simply praising it
or by simply condemning it.

1804
01:29:02,170 --> 01:29:04,206
You give it its due by allowing

1805
01:29:04,256 --> 01:29:08,215
that both of these things
are possible at once,

1806
01:29:08,260 --> 01:29:10,216
and that's the respect
that it deserves,