1
00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,600
He's reaching
out, really, for the downtrodden

2
00:00:58,500 --> 00:01:01,800
Of society, for the average
Joe on the street who wants

3
00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,100
To look up to his lyrics
and his music and say,

4
00:01:04,100 --> 00:01:06,600
"Hey, this man's
talking my language."

5
00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,000
You guys don't
like explaining anything

6
00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:17,300
To do with your music...

7
00:01:17,300 --> 00:01:18,200
There's
nothing to be said,

8
00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:19,600
It's all in the music, man.

9
00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:21,100
It's all in the music.

10
00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,200
If there was
a John Lennon-type figure

11
00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,200
For the so-called "Generation
X," it would be Cobain.

12
00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:29,300
The body of
Nirvana leader Kurt Cobain

13
00:01:29,300 --> 00:01:31,600
Was found in a house in
Seattle on Friday morning,

14
00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,000
Dead of an apparently
self-inflicted shotgun blast

15
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:35,500
To the head.

16
00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,400
An electrician
hired to work on Cobain's home

17
00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,200
Walked up to this room
above Cobain's garage

18
00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,700
And made the shocking
discovery this morning.

19
00:01:44,100 --> 00:01:45,700
A
suicide note was found.

20
00:01:45,700 --> 00:01:47,300
This
is a puzzling case,

21
00:01:47,300 --> 00:01:49,300
A very disturbing case.

22
00:01:50,100 --> 00:01:53,000
It first got
reported that Kurt was missing

23
00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,000
And Courtney Love hired
private investigator Tom Grant.

24
00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:58,000
I had
been involved in

25
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,200
Missing persons cases before.

26
00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,800
Some red flags started
popping up immediately,

27
00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,500
So I began recording every
conversation I had with Courtney

28
00:02:06,500 --> 00:02:09,200
During the entire period
that I worked for her.

29
00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,500
My
name is

30
00:02:13,500 --> 00:02:16,100
It could be
made to look like a suicide.

31
00:02:16,100 --> 00:02:18,400
People that
I had do this, I paid.

32
00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:19,900
I've walked
into cases that looked

33
00:02:19,900 --> 00:02:22,100
Like they were suicides that
turned out to be homicides.

34
00:02:22,100 --> 00:02:23,600
Cobain's
wife, singer Courtney Love,

35
00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:25,700
Was in England on tour
with her band Hole

36
00:02:25,700 --> 00:02:27,200
When the body was discovered.

37
00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:29,100
As it is,
she has inherited an estate

38
00:02:29,100 --> 00:02:31,000
Worth tens of
millions of dollars.

39
00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:32,400
That's motive.

40
00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:33,800
Did Courtney
Love kill Kurt Cobain?

41
00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,700
Did she have a hand in
any kind of conspiracy?

42
00:02:36,700 --> 00:02:41,700
These are favorite
topics of fanatics.

43
00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:44,500
There's nothing
in the medical examiner's

44
00:02:44,500 --> 00:02:47,400
Report or coroner's reports
that could not have easily

45
00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,700
Have been duplicated
by a murderer.

46
00:02:49,700 --> 00:02:52,100
It's entirely
possible that a police officer,

47
00:02:52,100 --> 00:02:55,800
No matter how well-trained,
may not see or notice

48
00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,000
A particular item of evidence.

49
00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,000
Kurt
Cobain was not barricaded

50
00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:01,200
Inside the room.

51
00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,500
He did not leave his
driver's license out.

52
00:03:03,500 --> 00:03:05,700
No one would believe
that was a suicide note.

53
00:03:05,700 --> 00:03:07,800
Kurt Cobain was injected
with three times

54
00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,400
The lethal dose of heroin.

55
00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,400
The media was
getting this wrong.

56
00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:00,700
Are you sure
he's not in there?

57
00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:05,900
I knocked for at
least five minutes.

58
00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,300
If he's there he
would have answered.

59
00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:10,600
Alright, I just
don't wanna end up

60
00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:12,600
On the wrong end of a shotgun.

61
00:04:22,700 --> 00:04:24,000
Let's go.

62
00:04:42,900 --> 00:04:44,300
Careful.

63
00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,300
Kurt?

64
00:04:55,300 --> 00:04:56,900
Kurt!

65
00:05:26,700 --> 00:05:27,600
If we find
it we're gonna have

66
00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:28,900
To take it, right?

67
00:05:29,500 --> 00:05:30,900
Yeah.

68
00:05:31,500 --> 00:05:33,200
Which I can legally
do since I bought it.

69
00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:34,900
It's in my name, so...

70
00:05:36,500 --> 00:05:38,400
Not here, could
it be under the bed?

71
00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:39,600
Might be.

72
00:05:42,100 --> 00:05:44,300
No. Alright,
let's move this.

73
00:05:46,900 --> 00:05:48,300
Alright, what is this?

74
00:05:48,700 --> 00:05:49,900
This mean anything to ya?

75
00:05:49,900 --> 00:05:51,800
Rohypnol,
that's where they are.

76
00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:52,900
What?

77
00:05:52,900 --> 00:05:54,200
He kept saying
someone stole 'em,

78
00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:56,300
But they've been sitting there.

79
00:05:56,300 --> 00:05:58,400
These are what he
OD'ed on in Rome.

80
00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,100
Well she didn't
want us to take those.

81
00:06:00,100 --> 00:06:01,200
Yeah.

82
00:06:02,100 --> 00:06:03,900
Uh, wait a minute.

83
00:06:03,900 --> 00:06:05,300
Would she be okay
if you keep 'em?

84
00:06:05,300 --> 00:06:06,400
Yeah.

85
00:06:12,700 --> 00:06:14,100
Are they legal here?

86
00:06:14,100 --> 00:06:15,900
Yeah, they're
completely legal, they're like...

87
00:06:15,900 --> 00:06:17,300
What are they used for?

88
00:06:17,300 --> 00:06:18,800
They're
sold as a sedative for

89
00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,400
Sleeping ailments, and sometimes
they're given to people...

90
00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:22,800
And if we get
pulled over, you're not

91
00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:24,600
Gonna get arrested
for havin' those?

92
00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:26,500
No, they're fine.

93
00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,600
Well it's obviously
not here, the shotgun.

94
00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,000
No, and I dunno
where it would be.

95
00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:44,100
Is there anywhere else?

96
00:06:44,100 --> 00:06:45,100
No.

97
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,200
Okay.

98
00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:53,700
My name is Tom Grant.

99
00:08:53,700 --> 00:08:55,900
I was hired by Courtney
Love to find her missing

100
00:08:55,900 --> 00:08:59,900
Husband, Kurt Cobain,
in April of 1994.

101
00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,300
My father was a schoolteacher,

102
00:09:06,300 --> 00:09:10,000
And this is a man I
never caught one time

103
00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,400
In my entire life telling a lie.

104
00:09:13,500 --> 00:09:17,300
He was the best role
model anybody can ask for.

105
00:09:18,700 --> 00:09:21,700
By the time I became a
junior in high school,

106
00:09:21,700 --> 00:09:24,800
I definitely wanted to
be a police officer.

107
00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,900
Graduating from the L.A.
County Sheriff's Department

108
00:09:27,900 --> 00:09:31,900
Was a very proud day for
me and for my family.

109
00:09:32,500 --> 00:09:34,900
My first assignment
was a patrol division

110
00:09:34,900 --> 00:09:37,600
At West Hollywood
Sheriff Station.

111
00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:45,000
When I quit the department,
I quit in very high standing.

112
00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:46,800
From there I moved
on, took the test

113
00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,000
And obtained my own private
investigator's license.

114
00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,100
I believe what makes me a good
P.I. is that I always apply

115
00:10:01,100 --> 00:10:04,700
Logic and common sense
to everything that I do.

116
00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,800
I've seen a lot of
suicides, a lot of murders,

117
00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,900
And I don't try to
pre-determine anything.

118
00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,900
And if I feel that my
client, that's coming to me

119
00:10:16,900 --> 00:10:21,100
For help, is in the wrong based
on what they're telling me,

120
00:10:21,100 --> 00:10:23,500
I'll let them know,
"This could be a pretty"

121
00:10:23,500 --> 00:10:25,700
"Dangerous trip for you."

122
00:10:25,700 --> 00:10:28,600
Scratch the surface of most
P.I.s and you don't find a clean

123
00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:30,900
Record, you find
a lotta skeletons.

124
00:10:30,900 --> 00:10:32,500
And then we met Tom Grant.

125
00:10:32,500 --> 00:10:35,000
It turned out he had
an exemplary record.

126
00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,800
He was respected, he
was a stand-up guy.

127
00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,400
There was a consensus,
and that went a long way

128
00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,300
To convincing us
of his credibility.

129
00:10:43,300 --> 00:10:46,300
The word conspiracy is
actually a legal term.

130
00:10:46,300 --> 00:10:49,600
It simply means two or
more people plotting

131
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,200
Or planning to commit a crime.

132
00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,300
Even committing shoplifting
with another person

133
00:10:55,300 --> 00:10:58,300
Can actually be charged
with conspiracy.

134
00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,400
When somebody refers to me
as a conspiracy theorist,

135
00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:06,000
I take it as an insult because
I know what they mean by it.

136
00:11:06,700 --> 00:11:09,700
Hiring me is not like
hiring an attorney.

137
00:11:09,700 --> 00:11:14,000
It's not to protect you, it's
not to keep you outta jail.

138
00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,400
My job as a private investigator
is to find the truth.

139
00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,500
It's simply to find
the truth in the matter

140
00:11:20,500 --> 00:11:22,800
That you're hiring me for.

141
00:11:34,100 --> 00:11:37,200
On Easter Sunday,
I was in my office

142
00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,900
With a private investigator
who worked for me

143
00:11:39,900 --> 00:11:42,100
Named Ben Klugman,
and we were dealing

144
00:11:42,100 --> 00:11:45,000
With a client when
the phone rang.

145
00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:47,800
Now who calls on Easter?

146
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,400
Would you excuse us
for just a second?

147
00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:53,300
The Grant Company,
how may I help you?

148
00:11:53,300 --> 00:11:55,700
And it was a woman's
voice on the other end,

149
00:11:55,700 --> 00:11:57,600
Kind of a raspy, low voice.

150
00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,000
Now if someone is unlawfully
using your credit cards,

151
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,500
Maybe the police are the
better people to call.

152
00:12:02,500 --> 00:12:05,100
And then she said,
"My husband and I are"

153
00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:09,100
"Kinda famous, and we need
to get this done right away."

154
00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:12,100
And your husband's name?

155
00:12:12,100 --> 00:12:13,400
Are you kidding me?

156
00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:14,700
No, no.

157
00:12:14,700 --> 00:12:16,900
I was about 47 at
the time; Ben Klugman,

158
00:12:16,900 --> 00:12:19,000
My investigator, was 29.

159
00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,200
He immediately
knew who they were

160
00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,500
And what had been
going on, even in Rome

161
00:12:24,500 --> 00:12:26,100
Just a few weeks earlier.

162
00:12:26,100 --> 00:12:28,700
Because it was a holiday, of
course, there were very few,

163
00:12:28,700 --> 00:12:31,800
If any, other
private investigators
working, so she went

164
00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,100
Through the Yellow Pages
and she found our ad

165
00:12:34,100 --> 00:12:37,200
And I was probably one
of many that she called,

166
00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:38,700
And I think she was
probably surprised

167
00:12:38,700 --> 00:12:40,600
To have the phone picked up.

168
00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:42,200
What room number?

169
00:12:42,900 --> 00:12:45,900
It's not very often that
a private investigator goes

170
00:12:45,900 --> 00:12:49,800
Against his client, so I'm
sure she regrets hiring me.

171
00:12:53,100 --> 00:12:55,000
When we were available
to meet Courtney

172
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,500
At the Peninsula Hotel,
first thing she said,

173
00:12:58,500 --> 00:13:01,000
And this is her words,
they're not mine,

174
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:08,100
You leak this to the press,
I'll sue the fuck out of you.

175
00:13:09,700 --> 00:13:12,400
Well, hello to
you too.

176
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,000
How ya doin'?

177
00:13:16,900 --> 00:13:19,000
Kurtis came from
rehab a couple days ago.

178
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:20,700
He bought a ticket back to
Seattle, but nobody's seen him

179
00:13:20,700 --> 00:13:22,100
Since he got back.

180
00:13:22,100 --> 00:13:24,100
When I first entered
the room, she was wearing

181
00:13:24,100 --> 00:13:28,900
A negligee nightgown,
totally see-through.

182
00:13:28,900 --> 00:13:32,600
She might as well have
had nothing on whatsoever.

183
00:13:34,900 --> 00:13:36,100
I called
the credit card companies

184
00:13:36,100 --> 00:13:38,200
And told them that
the card was stolen

185
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:39,900
And that they should cancel it.

186
00:13:42,100 --> 00:13:43,200
Was it?

187
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:44,900
What?

188
00:13:45,900 --> 00:13:47,400
Stolen.

189
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:48,900
No.

190
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,300
Courtney eventually told
us that Kurt's credit card

191
00:13:52,300 --> 00:13:54,900
Actually wasn't stolen,
that she had called the

192
00:13:54,900 --> 00:13:58,500
Credit card company and
canceled it so that nobody

193
00:13:58,500 --> 00:13:59,900
Could use it.

194
00:13:59,900 --> 00:14:02,500
She felt that that would,
essentially, cut him off

195
00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:04,700
From any funds.

196
00:14:05,300 --> 00:14:07,300
I'm sure your husband has
another way of getting money.

197
00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:08,700
Are you kidding me?

198
00:14:08,700 --> 00:14:10,600
Kurt is helpless, he
doesn't have any friends.

199
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,200
Again, in her words,
"You don't understand."

200
00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:14,400
"This guy can't even catch a..."

201
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,000
Fucking cab by
himself if he wanted to!

202
00:14:17,700 --> 00:14:18,500
Hey.

203
00:14:18,500 --> 00:14:19,700
Hey.

204
00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:29,500
That's my drug dealer.

205
00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:33,200
I didn't know at the
time that this was supposed

206
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,800
To be an in-house rehab.

207
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,500
I learned that later,
but a total farce.

208
00:14:39,500 --> 00:14:41,700
Most of the time I was
with her, she was either

209
00:14:41,700 --> 00:14:44,500
On drugs or doing drugs.

210
00:14:44,500 --> 00:14:47,200
There was nobody overseeing
what was going on there.

211
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,500
Listen,
Kurt escaped from rehab,

212
00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:52,200
He bought a shotgun, and I
just feel like something bad

213
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:53,800
Is gonna happen, okay?

214
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,400
In the middle of all this
conversation, she keeps talking

215
00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,000
About how suicidal he is,
and how everybody thinks

216
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:00,700
He's gonna commit suicide.

217
00:15:00,700 --> 00:15:01,700
Everybody
knows it, everybody thinks

218
00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:02,700
He's gonna die.

219
00:15:02,700 --> 00:15:03,900
Hold on a second.

220
00:15:03,900 --> 00:15:05,900
If he bought a shotgun
and he's suicidal,

221
00:15:05,900 --> 00:15:07,400
Then dealing with this
credit card problem,

222
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,100
That's the least important
thing we could help you with.

223
00:15:10,700 --> 00:15:14,100
Okay, well that's
where I want you to start.

224
00:15:15,900 --> 00:15:18,700
She started off with a lie
when we first talked to her

225
00:15:18,700 --> 00:15:21,700
On the phone, saying why
she wanted to hire us,

226
00:15:21,700 --> 00:15:25,100
Which wasn't true, and
then she starts telling us

227
00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:27,100
These other things that
just didn't add up.

228
00:15:27,100 --> 00:15:29,600
They weren't logical,
they didn't make sense.

229
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,600
So all kinds of red
flags started popping up.

230
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:34,000
I dunno what's gonna
happen with this case,

231
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,800
But we are gonna
document everything.

232
00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,900
Looking back on that day,
it turned out to be a day

233
00:15:39,900 --> 00:15:44,400
That really changed
my life forever.

234
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,100
The name Kurt Cobain
goes through my mind,

235
00:15:47,100 --> 00:15:50,800
Probably three or 400
times a day, at least,

236
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:55,000
And it has for the last
20 years, by necessity,

237
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,500
Because of the e-mails I
get, the letters I get,

238
00:15:57,500 --> 00:16:00,800
And all the other stuff,
because he was so famous,

239
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,800
And it gets a little
bit old after a while,

240
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:06,900
Just thinking Kurt Cobain,
Kurt Cobain, Kurt Cobain.

241
00:16:06,900 --> 00:16:08,900
Kurt Cobain,
Kurt Cobain, Kurt Cobain,

242
00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:10,700
Kurt Cobain, Kurt Cobain.

243
00:16:56,700 --> 00:16:58,300
Growing up in Aberdeen,

244
00:16:59,900 --> 00:17:02,300
Basically not a whole lot to do.

245
00:17:02,300 --> 00:17:04,400
Nine months out of the
year is very dreary,

246
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,400
Very overcast, lotsa rain.

247
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,400
It's kinda hard living in this
area and not being depressed.

248
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:12,600
Employment
opportunities in Aberdeen,

249
00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:16,200
There's not a whole lot.

250
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,200
For the most part, we
were lower-middle class.

251
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,600
I don't think we would
be considered poor,

252
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,300
We certainly didn't go hungry.

253
00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:25,000
The first two weeks of
the month, everybody gets

254
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,400
Their welfare check,
the bars are packed.

255
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,700
The last two weeks of the
month, the bars are empty

256
00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:33,800
And that's pretty much the
state of living.

257
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:35,700
Kurt used to live
across the street,

258
00:17:35,700 --> 00:17:37,800
And his mother and him,
they'd sit out there and argue

259
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:42,300
For a half hour or 45 minutes,
and the wife and I slept up

260
00:17:42,300 --> 00:17:46,100
In the upstairs bedroom, so
we used to hear it.

261
00:17:46,100 --> 00:17:49,900
I knew Kurt Cobain
from the high school.

262
00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:53,700
He ran around with
my two oldest sons.

263
00:17:53,700 --> 00:17:56,400
The couch I'm sitting
on now is the couch

264
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,400
That Kurt slept on.

265
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:03,400
He stayed for a few days,
and then a few days more,

266
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,800
And it just sorta stretched
out to be about a year.

267
00:18:09,700 --> 00:18:13,600
It's a depressing
atmosphere, but I also think

268
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,200
At the same time, that's
why we have so many bands

269
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,000
From all over Washington State.

270
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:19,200
There was nothing to do.

271
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,900
It rained constantly, so
what you had to do was

272
00:18:22,900 --> 00:18:24,200
You had to improvise.

273
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,200
People tended to pick
up instruments and play,

274
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:27,900
And I think that just
affected the music

275
00:18:27,900 --> 00:18:29,600
For this whole
region in general.

276
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,000
In our neighborhood,
we lived a block away

277
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,300
From the group that
became the Melvins.

278
00:18:36,300 --> 00:18:40,200
Metal Church lived in
the house next door.

279
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,300
We had examples of
people who made it.

280
00:18:43,300 --> 00:18:45,500
I used to see him with
his drum sticks beat

281
00:18:45,500 --> 00:18:49,000
On the stop signs, on the
fences, and his dad had

282
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,800
A old Ford pickup, he used
to beat on that.

283
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,900
When he first saw the Melvins
live for the first time,

284
00:18:55,900 --> 00:18:58,200
He just knew that that
was what he wanted to do.

285
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,500
The day that changed his life.

286
00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:03,800
Before Nirvana, we
were called Skid Row,

287
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,000
And then we went from Skid
Row and we played live

288
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,600
On the radio, a
midnight show on Chaos.

289
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,300
The very next day, I
showed up at Kurt's

290
00:19:11,300 --> 00:19:14,300
And Kurt had his easel
and he was paintin'

291
00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:17,200
This picture, and I
looked at it and I go,

292
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:18,200
"What the hell?"

293
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,100
It was a painting of a giant pen

294
00:19:21,100 --> 00:19:23,100
With its cap all chewed up.

295
00:19:23,900 --> 00:19:26,000
From that day on, we
were called Pencap Chew.

296
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:27,600
We did some shows
as Pencap Chew,

297
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,700
And Kurt tired of that,
so we're Ted Ed Fred.

298
00:19:31,700 --> 00:19:34,500
They don't like that no more,
so we're gonna be Bliss.

299
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,000
The fourth name was Bliss,

300
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,800
And then the fifth
name was Nirvana.

301
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,800
I didn't see him
as being particularly

302
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,500
Different emotionally
from any of us.

303
00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:48,400
I think people tended
to read him wrong,

304
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,400
Just because he
was a quiet person.

305
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,100
I don't see Kurt as
being depressed at all,

306
00:19:53,100 --> 00:19:54,900
I see him as being optimistic.

307
00:19:54,900 --> 00:19:57,200
He gave me a lotta hope,

308
00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,100
To hopefully, some day,
get outta this area

309
00:19:59,100 --> 00:20:00,900
With my music.

310
00:20:00,900 --> 00:20:04,100
Nirvana, Mudhoney and the
Melvins was doing something.

311
00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:05,500
It was proactive.

312
00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:09,500
To me, that takes courage,
and he had that courage,

313
00:20:09,500 --> 00:20:12,400
And that was the big difference.

314
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,900
He had so much talent
and tremendous amount

315
00:20:15,900 --> 00:20:19,400
Of creativity to give,
so it's unlimited,

316
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,000
What he could've done.

317
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,400
It would be nice to,
eventually, start playing

318
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,100
Acoustic guitars and be
thought of as a singer

319
00:20:28,100 --> 00:20:31,500
And a songwriter rather
than a grunge rocker.

320
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:33,900
Because then I might be able
to take advantage of that

321
00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:36,500
When I'm older and
sit down on a chair

322
00:20:36,500 --> 00:20:40,400
And play acoustic guitar like
Johnny Cash or something,

323
00:20:41,300 --> 00:20:44,600
And it won't be a big
joke, but who knows?

324
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,100
My last real memory of Kurt

325
00:20:48,100 --> 00:20:52,000
And it's not a good thing
for me, but I was on my way

326
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:53,700
To work and I had to get gas.

327
00:20:53,700 --> 00:20:55,500
I stopped in at one
of my former employers

328
00:20:55,500 --> 00:20:58,500
And I was gettin' gas for
my car, and they actually

329
00:20:58,500 --> 00:21:00,200
Had the radio playing.

330
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:04,600
They overheard it on
the radio and stuff,

331
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,300
Standing, paying for my
gas, and it was like...

332
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:12,700
I can't forget that day.

333
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:28,400
I called
the credit card company

334
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,800
Like you said, and

335
00:21:33,500 --> 00:21:34,900
They told me he also
bought two tickets

336
00:21:34,900 --> 00:21:36,200
On United Airlines.

337
00:21:36,700 --> 00:21:38,000
Where to?

338
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,500
They don't know, or
they won't tell me.

339
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,100
All they told me was how
much he paid for 'em.

340
00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:46,200
So, I dunno.

341
00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:52,500
Maybe he's going to hang
out with Michael again.

342
00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:53,600
Michael.

343
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:55,000
Stipe.

344
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,700
Lead singer of R.E.M?

345
00:22:01,500 --> 00:22:06,400
Anyway, I figure he
flies up, gets his guitar

346
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,400
From Seattle and then he
flies down to Atlanta,

347
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:09,600
But he has two tickets.

348
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,900
Did he buy a ticket
for someone else?

349
00:22:17,300 --> 00:22:20,000
I think Kurt wants a divorce.

350
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,700
Why would you say that?

351
00:22:21,700 --> 00:22:26,300
He left me a note in Rome,
he said he's leaving me.

352
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,300
The subject of divorce
came up almost every time

353
00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:31,000
We talked after that.

354
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,500
Whenever Courtney
referred to divorce,

355
00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:35,400
She would usually
say something like...

356
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:42,200
The only way that a
divorce is gonna happen is

357
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,700
If I bust him for infidelity.

358
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:46,200
Has he been unfaithful?

359
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,400
Yes! Yes, I think so.

360
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,200
Courtney, on several
occasions, mentioned
that she thought

361
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,400
Kurt might be having an
affair with Kristen Pfaff,

362
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:56,800
Her bass player.

363
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,800
She was very jealous, and
she also felt like he might

364
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:01,900
Be having an affair
with Caitlin.

365
00:23:01,900 --> 00:23:03,200
His drug dealer.

366
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,800
If Kurt's in Seattle,
he's with her.

367
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,100
She seemed to be
very jealous of anybody

368
00:23:08,100 --> 00:23:11,100
That got near Kurt, and wanted
to know every little move

369
00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:13,000
That he made.

370
00:23:17,500 --> 00:23:21,800
So I planted a story
in the news yesterday,

371
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:26,300
Saying that I had OD'ed and
that I was in the hospital,

372
00:23:26,300 --> 00:23:29,400
Thinking that Kurt would
get scared and call me.

373
00:23:30,100 --> 00:23:31,700
I dunno, it's like...

374
00:23:32,500 --> 00:23:35,800
I've got this record
coming out in a week,

375
00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:41,500
And so I know the value of this,
but I didn't think about it

376
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,300
When it first happened, but

377
00:23:49,700 --> 00:23:53,100
Anyway, what do I tell this
guy from the Associated Press?

378
00:23:53,100 --> 00:23:56,900
Should I call and confirm it,
and so the story goes out,

379
00:23:56,900 --> 00:23:58,300
And say I was there?

380
00:23:58,300 --> 00:24:00,300
I tell you what, and this
is just my gut instinct

381
00:24:00,300 --> 00:24:01,500
Yeah.

382
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,200
That way there's
no drugs involved

383
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:25,900
And the sympathy goes to me.

384
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,800
The press always
perceives me as just completely

385
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,900
Tragic and fucked up
anyway, so I don't know.

386
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,300
Thank you very much,
that's a lot of information,

387
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,400
And we'll go do our job.

388
00:25:07,100 --> 00:25:11,100
We were already convinced
that Tom was sincere,

389
00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:12,500
That he believed
what he was saying.

390
00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:14,100
He certainly wasn't lying.

391
00:25:14,100 --> 00:25:16,800
He brought us into this
office with a safe,

392
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,200
Opened the safe, and there was
this trove of cassette tapes,

393
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,600
Just hours and hours of tapes.

394
00:25:23,500 --> 00:25:26,000
And then he starts
playing us the tapes.

395
00:25:26,900 --> 00:25:30,600
And the facts were there.

396
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,600
She's just, coming
across as very controlling

397
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,500
And very angry.

398
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,400
Something was going on
that was outta the ordinary,

399
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,200
And there was more to this
than what I was being told.

400
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:12,700
I called
Seattle Police,

401
00:26:13,500 --> 00:26:15,600
Filed a missing person's report.

402
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,300
Did they ask when
you were comin' back?

403
00:26:17,300 --> 00:26:20,200
She filed it in the
name of Wendy O'Connor,

404
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:21,900
Kurt Cobain's mother.

405
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,800
If I filed
it under my own name.

406
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,000
So all the media that
went out after that

407
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,600
That said Kurt's mother filed
a missing person's report

408
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,100
Was totally false.

409
00:26:36,100 --> 00:26:38,500
On April 4th, Kurt Cobain's
mother, Wendy O'Connor,

410
00:26:38,500 --> 00:26:41,000
Filed a missing person's
report on her son

411
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:42,900
Because he reportedly fled a

412
00:26:42,900 --> 00:26:44,600
Quote end quote, "facility."

413
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,300
She did not clarify whether
that was a drug treatment center

414
00:26:47,300 --> 00:26:49,900
Or not, but that's what
people are speculating.

415
00:26:49,900 --> 00:26:52,300
She was worried about Kurt
because he had a shotgun

416
00:26:52,300 --> 00:26:53,500
In his possession.

417
00:26:53,500 --> 00:26:56,600
She considered him suicidal.

418
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,600
That should
get things going, right?

419
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,000
Right.

420
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:01,500
What about Caitlin?

421
00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:03,300
I know that they're together.

422
00:27:03,300 --> 00:27:04,700
I've got someone
watching her apartment.

423
00:27:04,700 --> 00:27:06,100
He hasn't showed up.

424
00:27:06,100 --> 00:27:07,600
I wanna put someone
on your house too,

425
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,500
Because sooner or later
he's gonna come home.

426
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,600
But if
Kurt's still in Seattle,

427
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:18,000
He's hiding out, he's not
gonna be at the house.

428
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,500
He likes to stay in hotels,
fancy hotels downtown.

429
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,600
He uses the name Simon Richie.

430
00:27:30,700 --> 00:27:33,500
Mm, mm, or Bill Bailey.

431
00:27:34,100 --> 00:27:35,700
You should check that out.

432
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,100
The next day, on
Monday, when we hadn't had

433
00:27:39,100 --> 00:27:43,600
Any success with the really
nice hotels in Seattle,

434
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,500
We began calling some of
the other smaller motels,

435
00:27:47,500 --> 00:27:51,100
And we located a
motel, and there was a

436
00:27:51,100 --> 00:27:53,500
Bill Bailey registered there.

437
00:27:53,500 --> 00:27:54,700
I wanna send one of
our guys over there

438
00:27:54,700 --> 00:27:56,200
To see if it's Kurt.

439
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:57,100
No no no no no
no, I don't want Kurt to know

440
00:27:57,100 --> 00:27:58,600
That I'm looking for him.

441
00:27:58,600 --> 00:27:59,900
Send somebody over there,

442
00:27:59,900 --> 00:28:02,500
Just have them watch
the hotel, okay?

443
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:04,700
Okay.

444
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,700
I dunno, 15 or
20 minutes went by.

445
00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:12,000
What do you mean
you called the hotel?

446
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,100
I thought that you said that
you didn't want Kurt to...

447
00:28:14,100 --> 00:28:15,900
No! I, Tom...

448
00:28:15,900 --> 00:28:19,900
Okay, listen,
if he's not there,

449
00:28:19,900 --> 00:28:21,300
Then I think we need
to set up a team

450
00:28:21,300 --> 00:28:22,600
At the Lake Washington house.

451
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,100
It's a waste of time, Tom.

452
00:28:24,100 --> 00:28:25,900
You know what, he's
not gonna be there.

453
00:28:25,900 --> 00:28:27,900
Is there a reason that
you don't want surveillance

454
00:28:27,900 --> 00:28:28,900
On your house?

455
00:28:28,900 --> 00:28:31,200
Yes, because we don't need it.

456
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,100
Cali's there, he'll tell
me if Kurt shows up.

457
00:28:48,500 --> 00:28:50,800
Earlier in the
day in a conversation,

458
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,700
Courtney told me she
didn't trust Cali,

459
00:28:52,700 --> 00:28:55,200
And she said he's one of the
best liars she's ever met.

460
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:56,800
But now, all of a
sudden, she tells me

461
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:57,900
He won't tell anybody.

462
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:08,400
I'm not as
effective for you here

463
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:09,700
As I would be up there.

464
00:29:09,700 --> 00:29:12,300
I'd like to move the entire
search up to Seattle.

465
00:29:13,300 --> 00:29:15,400
I know I got guys on the
ground there, local guys,

466
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,000
And if I were there I could
move 'em along a little.

467
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,800
That's fine, you can go.

468
00:29:22,300 --> 00:29:25,000
That's great, that's great.

469
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,400
Why don't you
go up there, Courtney?

470
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,400
Because I can't!

471
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,900
I have business to
take care of here.

472
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,300
Look, I'd appreciate it
if you didn't tell anyone

473
00:29:33,300 --> 00:29:34,800
I was traveling up there.

474
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,100
If anyone knows,
they might tell Kurt,

475
00:29:37,100 --> 00:29:39,300
And then he could flee.

476
00:29:39,300 --> 00:29:42,200
Absolutely, I
think it's a really good idea.

477
00:29:42,900 --> 00:29:45,600
Okay, I'm gonna get goin'.

478
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,300
Save the
American icon, Tom.

479
00:30:21,300 --> 00:30:24,200
As I was getting
ready to fly to Seattle,

480
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,700
Courtney told me
about Dylan Carlson.

481
00:30:26,700 --> 00:30:28,900
Dylan knew all the
hangouts, he knew the house

482
00:30:28,900 --> 00:30:30,500
Really well.

483
00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:33,100
Kurt's best friend
was Dylan Carlson.

484
00:30:33,100 --> 00:30:36,000
So what are you
thinkin', is he suicidal?

485
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:37,800
No, not at all.

486
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,600
He's been under a lotta
pressure but he's been handling

487
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,400
Things pretty good.

488
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:43,800
I know he and Courtney
have been having

489
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,400
A lotta troubles lately, but...

490
00:30:48,500 --> 00:30:50,300
I don't know why
Kurt married her.

491
00:30:50,300 --> 00:30:52,300
They don't get along, they
don't agree about anything,

492
00:30:52,300 --> 00:30:55,100
They're always fighting,
that type of thing.

493
00:30:55,100 --> 00:30:58,100
This thing in
Rome, did anybody say

494
00:30:58,100 --> 00:31:00,600
That that may have been
him tryin' to kill himself?

495
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,100
No, it was an accident.

496
00:31:03,100 --> 00:31:04,700
Everybody knows that.

497
00:31:04,700 --> 00:31:06,800
I asked him several times
about whether Kurt was

498
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,500
Suicidal or not, and it
was almost a joke to him.

499
00:31:10,500 --> 00:31:12,300
It was like, "No,
of course not."

500
00:31:12,300 --> 00:31:16,200
'Cause I'm thinkin'
if he was as suicidal

501
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,700
As she says he is, why would
she let him buy a shotgun?

502
00:31:18,700 --> 00:31:20,800
He's not suicidal.

503
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,300
We bought that shotgun
the day he went to rehab,

504
00:31:23,300 --> 00:31:25,600
Been a burglary at
the house recently.

505
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,000
The police had just
confiscated his other gun,

506
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,300
So I registered it in my name.

507
00:31:32,700 --> 00:31:35,000
Trust me, if he was suicidal,
I would never let him

508
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:36,800
Get a shotgun.

509
00:31:41,700 --> 00:31:43,900
Singer Courtney Love says
Cobain had first written

510
00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:46,400
A suicide note to her
which said, in part,

511
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,900
"It's not fun for me anymore,
I can't live this life."

512
00:31:49,900 --> 00:31:52,000
There was a mythology
that, "Oh yeah",

513
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:53,700
"Everybody knew he was suicidal,"

514
00:31:53,700 --> 00:31:56,000
"That was just obvious,"

515
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,800
So it was no big surprise when
he finally killed himself.

516
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,000
And then you go to
those closest to him,

517
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:02,900
The people that knew him best,

518
00:32:02,900 --> 00:32:05,700
And none of them
believed he was suicidal.

519
00:32:05,700 --> 00:32:08,900
I've never heard Kurt talk
about suicide or anything,

520
00:32:08,900 --> 00:32:10,700
He always seemed
happy around me.

521
00:32:10,700 --> 00:32:13,600
Quiet, shy, but
definitely happy.

522
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,500
Never hinted to me
that he was depressed.

523
00:32:16,500 --> 00:32:20,400
His music and his lyrics
portrayed a darker side

524
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,400
To some of his emotions, but
I think that was glorified.

525
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,600
People start to analyze
the lyrics and look at some

526
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,500
Of the things that
he wrote and say,

527
00:32:28,500 --> 00:32:30,400
"Of course, look at
what he wrote here."

528
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,100
"Obviously he's
talking about suicide."

529
00:32:33,100 --> 00:32:36,200
I'm tired of people
thinking, trying to put

530
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,500
Too much meaning into my lyrics.

531
00:32:38,500 --> 00:32:39,900
A lotta times when I
write lyrics, which is

532
00:32:39,900 --> 00:32:43,200
At the last second
'cause I'm really lazy.

533
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,100
And then I find myself
having to come up

534
00:32:45,100 --> 00:32:47,100
With explanations for it.

535
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,000
There may be one or two lines
in a song here and there,

536
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,300
But I swear to God,
brother, it's really not

537
00:32:54,300 --> 00:32:56,400
As much as it seems.

538
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,600
The pain in his stomach,
this was a big thing

539
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,500
This stomach pain that he'd
been suffering for years

540
00:33:01,500 --> 00:33:04,500
Was so severe that it made
him wanna kill himself.

541
00:33:04,500 --> 00:33:06,700
He did talk like that,
there's no question,

542
00:33:06,700 --> 00:33:10,800
And once that was
diagnosed, it was treated,

543
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,000
And the pain went away.

544
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:13,800
How's your stomach?

545
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:14,900
Have you found anything to...

546
00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:17,900
It's gone.

547
00:33:17,900 --> 00:33:19,400
- Yeah?
- Yeah.

548
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,700
I finally have been prescribed
the right stomach medicine

549
00:33:22,700 --> 00:33:27,700
After six years of being
in constant pain, finally.

550
00:33:28,500 --> 00:33:31,700
I haven't had a stomach
problem for over a year now.

551
00:33:31,700 --> 00:33:35,800
The stomach pain and the
outlook and his disposition

552
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,900
Seem to be very closely linked.

553
00:33:37,900 --> 00:33:39,600
He had given an interview
to Rolling Stone,

554
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,100
Where he said he was
happier than he'd ever been.

555
00:33:42,100 --> 00:33:42,900
Is this your idea?

556
00:33:45,500 --> 00:33:49,400
When you hear Courtney
spinning this whole

557
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:54,400
Elaborate timeline about how
he tried to commit suicide

558
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,800
Before and he was
talking about suicide

559
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,500
To everybody he knew, that
just seems to be fiction.

560
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,400
Rather chillingly, Love
says that three of Cobain's

561
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,700
Uncles had also
committed suicide.

562
00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:08,100
She calls it the Cobain curse.

563
00:34:08,100 --> 00:34:12,000
As far as the suicide
history in the Cobain family,

564
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,600
Leland Cobain's father,
he was a Monte Santo

565
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,600
Police officer, and he
went into a bar one day

566
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:19,800
And he sat at a bar stool.

567
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,600
This was back in 1938.

568
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,300
His gun somehow dislodged
from its holster,

569
00:34:24,300 --> 00:34:27,600
Hit the ground, and
according to the report,

570
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,900
He looked around in the
bar and asked if everybody

571
00:34:29,900 --> 00:34:31,800
Was okay, and then
immediately collapsed.

572
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,000
He just fell dead.

573
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,600
From what Leland has told
me about his brother,

574
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:42,600
His brother was drinking
and he fell down a staircase

575
00:34:42,700 --> 00:34:44,900
And died from
complications of that.

576
00:34:44,900 --> 00:34:46,100
Neither Kurt's great-grandpa

577
00:34:46,100 --> 00:34:49,000
Or his great-uncle
were suicides.

578
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:51,500
One of the important
elements in the case,

579
00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:54,900
And in convincing the
world that it was suicide

580
00:34:54,900 --> 00:34:58,400
Was the so-called
"Rome suicide attempt."

581
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:02,600
Nirvana front-man Kurt Cobain,

582
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,400
Who slipped into a coma
and was hospitalized

583
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,000
In Rome, Italy, at about 6AM
this morning, was in a state

584
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,700
Of what his management
calls "complete collapse."

585
00:35:09,700 --> 00:35:11,300
His condition was
apparently aggravated

586
00:35:11,300 --> 00:35:12,900
When he consumed
champagne on top of a

587
00:35:12,900 --> 00:35:15,500
Prescription painkiller
called Rohypnol.

588
00:35:15,500 --> 00:35:18,700
At the time, the word
suicide was never used

589
00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:21,000
By the media, by
Courtney, by Kurt.

590
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,200
It was portrayed as an
accidental drug overdose.

591
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,300
He recovered from
the coma, and his publicists

592
00:35:26,300 --> 00:35:29,200
Said the incident was an
accident, not a suicide attempt.

593
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,000
As soon as Kurt died, first
interviews that Courtney gave

594
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,700
She started talking about
previous suicide attempts,

595
00:35:35,700 --> 00:35:37,700
Rome was a suicide attempt.

596
00:35:37,700 --> 00:35:39,800
Courtney started telling people

597
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,900
That Kurt had
swallowed 60 pills.

598
00:35:43,900 --> 00:35:45,600
You swallow 60 pills,
that's not an accident.

599
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,300
That's a suicide attempt.

600
00:35:47,300 --> 00:35:51,000
So we decided to contact
the doctor that treated Kurt

601
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:56,000
In Rome, Doctor Galletta,
and he categorically denied

602
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,400
That there were 60
pills in his stomach

603
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,900
And that it was a
suicide attempt.

604
00:36:01,900 --> 00:36:05,600
At the time, Kurt and
Courtney both said it was

605
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,300
An accident, and the
doctor confirmed that.

606
00:36:08,300 --> 00:36:11,100
So there's just no evidence
that he had ever tried

607
00:36:11,100 --> 00:36:12,700
To kill himself before.

608
00:36:12,700 --> 00:36:15,600
No anecdotal evidence,
nobody else close to Kurt

609
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,700
Ever said that he tried
to commit suicide,

610
00:36:18,700 --> 00:36:21,600
But the world just took
Courtney's word for it.

611
00:37:04,300 --> 00:37:06,600
While I was in Seattle with
Dylan and we were driving

612
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,000
Around, I mentioned to
him that Courtney said

613
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,900
That Kurt only stays
in the best hotels,

614
00:37:11,900 --> 00:37:14,600
And he was almost incredulous.

615
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:16,600
He practically
laughed and he said,

616
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,100
"That's ridiculous!"

617
00:37:18,100 --> 00:37:22,100
"He hates fancy hotels, he
stays in really cheap places,"

618
00:37:22,100 --> 00:37:24,600
"Mostly along the Aurora strip."

619
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,700
Have you seen him or not?

620
00:37:27,500 --> 00:37:28,800
Okay, come on.

621
00:37:36,100 --> 00:37:38,600
I'm gonna call
Courtney and check in.

622
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,200
I dunno what's goin' on.

623
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,400
Dylan told me that when
they did stay at those motels,

624
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,500
They usually stayed
for two or three weeks,

625
00:37:45,500 --> 00:37:48,900
Basically living off of
Coca Cola and potato chips

626
00:37:48,900 --> 00:37:50,900
And doing their heroin.

627
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,000
Courtney always wanted
to go through Dylan,

628
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,400
She wanted to talk
to Dylan on the phone

629
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,300
And have Dylan give
me the instructions.

630
00:38:05,300 --> 00:38:08,300
Courtney's had some trouble,
she was in the hospital

631
00:38:08,300 --> 00:38:10,200
And she got arrested.

632
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:11,700
What?

633
00:38:11,700 --> 00:38:14,700
She said that it was all a
big mistake and she's fine.

634
00:38:15,100 --> 00:38:16,600
She wants us to go back
to the house and look

635
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:18,400
For the shotgun again.

636
00:38:19,100 --> 00:38:20,700
She thinks it might be
in the hidden compartment

637
00:38:20,700 --> 00:38:22,400
Of the bedroom closet.

638
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,200
Hidden compartment?

639
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,400
She hadn't mentioned
that to us before,

640
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,700
But she said, "That's where
Kurt keeps the shotgun",

641
00:38:28,700 --> 00:38:31,200
"So if it's there, that's
where it's gonna be."

642
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,500
Let's go.

643
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:52,500
Remember this from last night?

644
00:38:52,500 --> 00:38:53,900
No.

645
00:38:54,100 --> 00:38:57,200
The note that was
apparently written by Cali

646
00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:58,700
Didn't make sense.

647
00:38:58,700 --> 00:39:02,600
"Kurt, I can't believe you
managed to be in this house"

648
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,400
"Without me noticing."

649
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,400
"You're a fucking asshole
for not calling Courtney"

650
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,500
"And at least letting her
know that you're okay."

651
00:39:10,500 --> 00:39:13,300
"She's in a lot of pain,
Kurt, and this morning"

652
00:39:13,300 --> 00:39:15,300
"She had another
accident, and now she's"

653
00:39:15,300 --> 00:39:17,400
"In the hospital again."

654
00:39:18,100 --> 00:39:20,300
We looked in that little
hidden compartment.

655
00:39:20,300 --> 00:39:22,200
There was no shotgun there.

656
00:39:23,100 --> 00:39:26,200
"She's your wife, she loves you,"

657
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,200
"And you have a child together."

658
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,400
"Get it together to at
least tell her you're okay,"

659
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,300
"Or she is going to die."

660
00:39:33,300 --> 00:39:35,000
"It's not fair, man."

661
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:36,600
"Do something now."

662
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,500
Later when I talked to
Rosemary Carroll about it

663
00:39:48,500 --> 00:39:50,300
And I told her I was
suspicious of it,

664
00:39:50,300 --> 00:39:53,600
She jumped in right away, and
she knows Cali real well, too.

665
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,800
Dylan and I headed out
to the town of Carnation,

666
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:50,600
Just outside of Seattle.

667
00:40:51,500 --> 00:40:53,600
Kurt and Courtney
owned two cabins there,

668
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:55,700
And we were curious to see if
there had been any evidence

669
00:40:55,700 --> 00:40:57,900
Of Kurt being there.

670
00:40:58,900 --> 00:41:02,900
We got about halfway there
when we stopped to get gas,

671
00:41:02,900 --> 00:41:05,100
And Dylan made
another phone call.

672
00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:18,500
I got a phone
call from our electrician,

673
00:41:18,500 --> 00:41:23,400
Gary Smith, and he was doing
some security lighting.

674
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:24,800
We had a house above.

675
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:26,600
We just knew it was a
rock star in Seattle,

676
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,200
We weren't sure,
didn't know who he was.

677
00:41:29,900 --> 00:41:32,600
He literally just
stumbled across it.

678
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,900
He looked through a
doorway, a glass door,

679
00:41:38,900 --> 00:41:42,700
A locked door,
and he saw a body.

680
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,900
And he said, "I think
he shot himself."

681
00:41:49,900 --> 00:41:52,500
I called a radio station,
told 'em what happened.

682
00:41:52,500 --> 00:41:54,800
So I answered
the call and there's a guy

683
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,400
On the end of the line,
and he's goin', "I have got"

684
00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:59,700
"Some incredible news here."

685
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:02,100
Anything?

686
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,400
A friend of mine said he
just heard they found a body

687
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,600
At Kurt's house.

688
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,000
What?

689
00:42:16,300 --> 00:42:18,400
Rock
group Nirvana is dead.

690
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,100
An electrician
discovered Cobain's body

691
00:42:20,100 --> 00:42:22,700
In the singer's Lake
Washington home this morning.

692
00:42:22,700 --> 00:42:25,100
The electrician tells KOMO
news that emergency crews

693
00:42:25,100 --> 00:42:27,700
Told him that the dead
man is Kurt Cobain.

694
00:42:27,700 --> 00:42:29,100
When I heard
that the body was found

695
00:42:29,100 --> 00:42:31,800
In a room that was called
the Greenhouse, I turned

696
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,200
To Dylan and I said,
"What's the Greenhouse?"

697
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,300
And he said, "It's just
a dirty little room"

698
00:42:37,300 --> 00:42:38,500
"Above the garage."

699
00:42:38,500 --> 00:42:40,600
They stored lumber or
something in there.

700
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,400
It sounded to me
like this was just

701
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,500
Some kinda broom
closet or something.

702
00:42:44,500 --> 00:42:45,700
So do you
think he intentionally

703
00:42:45,700 --> 00:42:47,900
Did not tell you to
check that room out?

704
00:42:48,700 --> 00:42:50,600
Again, I hope the
listeners bear in mind

705
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,800
We're having to skip over
an awful lotta stuff...

706
00:42:56,900 --> 00:42:58,900
I glanced down on
the floor and I saw

707
00:42:58,900 --> 00:43:00,800
Something that looked
like a mannequin.

708
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,900
I can see blood in this
ear, and long hair,

709
00:43:04,900 --> 00:43:08,500
And immediately got
a little shaken.

710
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:14,900
The French doors were locked.

711
00:43:16,500 --> 00:43:18,800
I was first in and
right away could see

712
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,100
That it was a fatality.

713
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,000
The shotgun lay in his lap,
a significant pool of blood

714
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:27,600
By his head.

715
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:28,900
There was nothing
we could do for him,

716
00:43:28,900 --> 00:43:30,900
So we didn't touch the body.

717
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,400
We'll check for mail or
somethin' with a name on it.

718
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:39,400
The officer said, "Do
you want the name?"

719
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:41,300
Knowing I needed
it for my log book.

720
00:43:41,300 --> 00:43:44,200
He said, "It's
Cobain, Kurt Cobain."

721
00:43:44,900 --> 00:43:46,800
A couple of second delay
and my head snappin' around,

722
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,800
I said, "You mean
the rock star?"

723
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,400
The developing
story shocks the music world.

724
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,500
A man found dead this morning
is rock star Kurt Cobain.

725
00:43:56,500 --> 00:43:58,600
Cobain's
body was found about a...

726
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:00,000
Apparently
it was a suicide...

727
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:10,500
Was so severe
that his body could only

728
00:44:10,500 --> 00:44:12,600
Be identified by fingerprints.

729
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,200
Police can't
release the details found

730
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,900
In Cobain's suicide note,
but over the past couple

731
00:44:16,900 --> 00:44:19,900
Of years, Cobain has
had some tough times.

732
00:44:19,900 --> 00:44:21,600
Cobain was 27.

733
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,100
He joins a growing list of
rock stars who burn bright

734
00:44:25,100 --> 00:44:27,400
Then burn out tragically.

735
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:29,800
When we
arrived at the property

736
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,300
It was broad daylight and
the Greenhouse stuck out

737
00:44:32,300 --> 00:44:33,700
Like a sore thumb.

738
00:44:33,700 --> 00:44:35,800
You could see it from the
street above the bushes,

739
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:37,200
It was so tall.

740
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:41,500
I just didn't understand why
he didn't point that out to me.

741
00:44:43,900 --> 00:44:45,500
That's
Entertainment Tonight.

742
00:44:46,100 --> 00:44:47,500
He's Rolling Stone.

743
00:44:47,500 --> 00:44:49,900
Dylan didn't like the
press and he said Kurt didn't

744
00:44:49,900 --> 00:44:51,400
Like the press.

745
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,600
Current Affairs;
stay away from them.

746
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:55,300
Ho ho ho.

747
00:44:55,300 --> 00:44:56,300
I'm Tom
Grant, how are you?

748
00:44:56,300 --> 00:44:57,700
Fine.

749
00:44:57,700 --> 00:45:00,100
I was hired by
Courtney Love to investigate

750
00:45:00,100 --> 00:45:01,600
The disappearance
of her husband.

751
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,400
I've got information I
think would be helpful.

752
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,300
Could I speak to the
detective in charge?

753
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:08,800
Wait here.

754
00:45:21,300 --> 00:45:23,300
He said he's too busy
to speak with you now.

755
00:45:23,300 --> 00:45:26,300
Call the station after 3PM;
you can talk to him then.

756
00:45:26,300 --> 00:45:28,300
I was dumbfounded by that.

757
00:45:28,300 --> 00:45:31,700
If I were a police officer
investigating the dead body

758
00:45:31,700 --> 00:45:34,600
And somebody told me
there was somebody outside

759
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,000
That had been in the
house the night before,

760
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:38,900
I'd tell them, "Hold him."

761
00:45:38,900 --> 00:45:41,600
"If they say they need
to leave, handcuff 'em,"

762
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,400
"And keep 'em there until we
get a chance to talk to 'em."

763
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:46,100
You don't let
somebody like that go,

764
00:45:46,100 --> 00:45:49,400
You don't take a chance until
you've fully investigated

765
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:54,200
A case and determined
positively how this person died.

766
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:55,700
The Seattle Police
Department claimed

767
00:45:55,700 --> 00:45:58,900
They were investigating
this as a possible homicide.

768
00:45:58,900 --> 00:46:01,300
If they were, they certainly
wouldn't allow somebody

769
00:46:01,300 --> 00:46:04,000
To leave when they'd been
in the house the night

770
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,100
Before a dead body was
found on the property.

771
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:08,800
I'm Norm Stamper.

772
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,500
I was a police
officer for 34 years,

773
00:46:11,500 --> 00:46:16,500
And last six from 1994 to 2000
as Seattle's police chief.

774
00:46:16,700 --> 00:46:19,700
I wouldn't pretend that
there aren't police officers

775
00:46:19,700 --> 00:46:23,900
Who are cynical and
suspicious and skeptical.

776
00:46:23,900 --> 00:46:27,900
That was the case in
the Kurt Cobain death.

777
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,600
John F. Kennedy,
Martin Luther King,

778
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,300
Elvis Presley, Marilyn Monroe.

779
00:46:38,300 --> 00:46:40,600
Over the past 50 years as a

780
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:42,900
Medical-legal forensic
pathology consultant,

781
00:46:42,900 --> 00:46:45,800
I've been involved in
thousands of cases,

782
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,600
About 18,000 autopsies,
and I have reviewed,

783
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,600
Signed off or
supervised, and evaluated

784
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,400
About 38,000 other autopsies.

785
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:56,400
I have personally
investigated, supervised,

786
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,200
Consulted and researched
on over 8,000 homicides.

787
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,700
I wrote Practical Homicide
Investigation because there was

788
00:47:01,700 --> 00:47:06,200
A need for a standard protocol
to approach all death scenes.

789
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,300
From the very beginning,
everything that the detectives

790
00:47:09,300 --> 00:47:13,400
Encountered indicated to
them that this was a suicide.

791
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:18,400
The decision to rule the
case by police the same day

792
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:20,700
And to make a public
pronouncement that this was

793
00:47:20,700 --> 00:47:25,100
A suicide is not the
way good police agencies

794
00:47:25,100 --> 00:47:26,500
Would function today.

795
00:47:26,500 --> 00:47:28,000
As a homicide commander,

796
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:29,800
I would not be making
any proclamations

797
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,100
That the case was a suicide
without the evidence

798
00:47:33,100 --> 00:47:35,100
Having been processed:
the victimology,

799
00:47:35,100 --> 00:47:37,600
The medical-legal
process, toxicology.

800
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:39,000
It's a death investigation.

801
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,500
They knew nothing
about the drug level,

802
00:47:41,500 --> 00:47:43,800
They knew nothing
about fingerprints,

803
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:45,800
They knew nothing about
anything else at that time

804
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,100
Except that they had
found him with a shotgun.

805
00:47:48,100 --> 00:47:50,500
The reason we call things
death investigations is

806
00:47:50,500 --> 00:47:52,700
That we don't wanna
prematurely make them

807
00:47:52,700 --> 00:47:54,800
Homicides, suicides
or accidents.

808
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:56,500
It's a death investigation.

809
00:47:56,500 --> 00:48:00,400
Cases that involve
prominent figures,

810
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:05,100
These cases usually take
more time because you know

811
00:48:05,100 --> 00:48:07,000
That there are gonna
be more questions.

812
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:08,600
People are gonna wanna
know every single

813
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:09,700
Thing about it.

814
00:48:09,700 --> 00:48:11,400
In the Philip
Seymour Hoffman case,

815
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,000
They found him with
a needle in his arm.

816
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,100
They found 50 bags
of heroin right there

817
00:48:17,100 --> 00:48:19,100
In his apartment, and
yet they did not make

818
00:48:19,100 --> 00:48:21,000
Any announcement beyond that.

819
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,300
They knew that they
should not be commenting.

820
00:48:23,300 --> 00:48:26,200
Official statements as to
cause and manner of death

821
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,600
Do not come from police or
even homicide detectives.

822
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:31,300
They do not.

823
00:48:33,900 --> 00:48:36,500
I've never believed that
the police were involved

824
00:48:36,500 --> 00:48:39,900
From the beginning in
any kind of a conspiracy

825
00:48:39,900 --> 00:48:42,400
Involving Kurt Cobain's death.

826
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,100
I think they were set
up by Courtney Love

827
00:48:45,100 --> 00:48:47,000
From that missing
person's report,

828
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,100
And everything
that it said in it.

829
00:48:49,100 --> 00:48:53,100
If my officers heard
or were made aware

830
00:48:53,100 --> 00:48:56,600
That Kurt Cobain had
left rehab, had purchased

831
00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:00,300
A shotgun, was suicidal,
that's of course going

832
00:49:00,300 --> 00:49:01,700
To affect them.

833
00:49:01,700 --> 00:49:04,700
They, what I call assumed
the suicide position,

834
00:49:04,700 --> 00:49:06,800
Which to me means cut
corners, not do this,

835
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,800
Not do that, because it's
a suicide, no problem.

836
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,800
I have to admit, there's
been a lot of inconsistencies

837
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:13,100
In this case.

838
00:49:13,100 --> 00:49:14,600
Really?

839
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,000
The reports that were
coming out in the media said

840
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,300
Kurt Cobain was barricaded
inside the Greenhouse.

841
00:49:20,300 --> 00:49:22,200
Look at this photograph.

842
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,200
Is that the lock
you're talking about?

843
00:49:24,900 --> 00:49:26,300
I dunno where
this picture's from,

844
00:49:26,300 --> 00:49:28,200
So I couldn't say.

845
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:29,900
Well, it's from
the Greenhouse.

846
00:49:29,900 --> 00:49:31,900
I've been over the
place inside and out,

847
00:49:31,900 --> 00:49:34,500
And trust me, that
is the only lock.

848
00:49:34,500 --> 00:49:35,800
If you say so.

849
00:49:36,700 --> 00:49:38,900
Presuming I'm
telling you the truth,

850
00:49:38,900 --> 00:49:41,200
Why would you say that
he locked himself in?

851
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,600
Because the door was locked.

852
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:45,800
Look at the picture.

853
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:47,800
It's not a deadbolt,
it's a twist lock.

854
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,200
Anybody coulda twisted that
lock and pulled the door shut

855
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:51,400
Behind 'em when they left.

856
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:53,100
Look, the lock doesn't matter.

857
00:49:53,100 --> 00:49:55,700
There was a stool wedged
up against the door.

858
00:49:55,700 --> 00:49:57,000
Now how do you wedge
a stool against a door

859
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:58,500
After you've already
left the room?

860
00:49:58,500 --> 00:50:01,300
The police reports
plainly states that the stool

861
00:50:01,300 --> 00:50:04,000
Was simply sitting in
front of the two unlocked

862
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,900
French doors at the
other side of the room,

863
00:50:06,900 --> 00:50:09,800
But on one of the reports,
it was added that the stool

864
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,400
Was blocking the entrance.

865
00:50:13,900 --> 00:50:15,400
Someone reported
that there was a stool

866
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:16,400
Blocking the door.

867
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:17,300
That wasn't the case.

868
00:50:17,300 --> 00:50:18,900
I dunno where that came from.

869
00:50:18,900 --> 00:50:20,500
If you could just
show me the photographs

870
00:50:20,500 --> 00:50:23,000
Your officer took at the
scene, we can put that issue

871
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:24,200
To rest once and for all.

872
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:26,400
Well the photographs
haven't been developed,

873
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:28,400
Probably never will be.

874
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:32,100
We don't develop
photographs on suicides.

875
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:34,400
I have never heard of that.

876
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:36,200
Every case I've been
involved, with the crime scene

877
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:37,500
Photographs were developed.

878
00:50:37,500 --> 00:50:39,300
Why not release 'em
to other experts?

879
00:50:39,300 --> 00:50:40,800
I can't answer that question.

880
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,300
It was something that the
Seattle Police department did.

881
00:50:44,300 --> 00:50:47,000
In hindsight, they
probably shouldn't have.

882
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:48,600
But that's what they did.

883
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:51,300
Nothing you've said
convinces me this is anything

884
00:50:51,300 --> 00:50:53,100
But a suicide.

885
00:50:53,700 --> 00:50:56,200
Now do you got any
other pearls for me?

886
00:50:57,900 --> 00:50:59,400
Not at this time.

887
00:51:00,100 --> 00:51:03,100
Detective Cameron
resigned when he learned

888
00:51:03,100 --> 00:51:05,200
I was preparing to fire him.

889
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,100
He had colluded with one
of his own detectives

890
00:51:08,100 --> 00:51:11,800
To replant evidence
that had been stolen

891
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,800
By a homicide detective
at a homicide scene.

892
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:17,800
And it was for that reason
that I was preparing

893
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:19,500
To fire him.

894
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:28,400
I'm just giving you
the information I have,

895
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:30,900
I don't care what
you do with it.

896
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,400
I understand that, but
I think your investigation

897
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,700
Is into things that our
investigation doesn't apply to.

898
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:53,800
You don't allow
a patrol officer

899
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,800
With no homicide
investigative experience

900
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,500
To determine whether a
scene is a suicide or not.

901
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,200
My opinion is, in 1994,

902
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,100
They just didn't
look at anything.

903
00:52:10,100 --> 00:52:13,200
If it appeared to be a
suicide, it was a suicide.

904
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:15,000
Case closed.

905
00:52:49,900 --> 00:52:52,900
The news media do
poison the atmosphere,

906
00:52:52,900 --> 00:52:55,100
And I have been involved
in cases in which

907
00:52:55,100 --> 00:52:59,600
It was impossible, almost,
to overcome the beliefs

908
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,200
That had been created
within the community

909
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:05,000
Because of the way in
which that particular death

910
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:06,200
Had been reported.

911
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:07,600
Judging by the
evidence at the scene,

912
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:09,700
Love says, Cobain
apparently drew a chair up

913
00:53:09,700 --> 00:53:12,500
To a window looking out
on Puget Sound, sat down,

914
00:53:12,500 --> 00:53:14,500
Took some more drugs,
picked up his shotgun and,

915
00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:17,200
Using his thumb, it seems,
shot himself in the head.

916
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:19,000
The physical damage was so
severe that his body could

917
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,400
Only be identified
by fingerprints.

918
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:22,700
I was a bit surprised.

919
00:53:22,700 --> 00:53:24,300
Normally a shotgun
wound to the head,

920
00:53:24,300 --> 00:53:26,200
The ones I've seen,
are pretty devastating,

921
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:28,700
Often making facial
features unrecognizable.

922
00:53:28,700 --> 00:53:31,600
His head was not grossly
deformed or badly damaged.

923
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:33,900
I think I certainly
would've recognized him.

924
00:53:33,900 --> 00:53:35,800
I don't see any reason
why anyone wouldn't have,

925
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:37,200
Who knew what he looked like.

926
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,200
Seattle's own police
reports indicate

927
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,900
That Officer Lavendowski
found Kurt Cobain's wallet

928
00:53:42,900 --> 00:53:44,800
Lyin' on the floor.

929
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:48,200
He opened it up and removed
his driver's license,

930
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:50,800
And he put it on top
of Cobain's wallet

931
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,200
To take a photograph
for evidence.

932
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:55,800
Most of the media
reported that Kurt left

933
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:58,600
His driver's license exposed,
and a lot of 'em went

934
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:00,200
Into a lotta detail:

935
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:03,200
That he did that so that
everyone would recognize him.

936
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:05,400
But it was completely false.

937
00:54:39,900 --> 00:54:42,000
Love, who, contrary to
rumor, says she and Cobain

938
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:44,900
Hadn't broken up, says
Cobain had first written

939
00:54:44,900 --> 00:54:47,400
A suicide note to her
which said, in part,

940
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:49,300
"It's not fun for me anymore."

941
00:54:49,300 --> 00:54:50,900
"I can't live this life."

942
00:54:50,900 --> 00:54:54,100
News media play a great
role in these matters.

943
00:54:54,100 --> 00:54:56,300
John Kennedy,
incidentally, pointed out

944
00:54:56,300 --> 00:54:59,500
The need for integrity
within the news media.

945
00:54:59,500 --> 00:55:01,000
This has been something
that was commented

946
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:04,400
Upon going back to
our founding fathers,

947
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:07,000
Because sometimes
pressures from news media

948
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:10,000
Can be very, very significant.

949
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:12,200
I don't have the
right to make an opinion

950
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,100
On anything that I read
or see on television

951
00:55:15,100 --> 00:55:18,800
Until I go to the fuckin'
source myself, personally.

952
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,700
The toxicology report
from Kurt Cobain's autopsy

953
00:55:25,700 --> 00:55:30,600
Indicated a heroin blood level
of 1.52 milligrams per liter.

954
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:33,700
Five milligrams
will produce a level

955
00:55:33,700 --> 00:55:37,400
Of 0.035 milligrams.

956
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:39,800
Most users, even heavy users,

957
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:43,700
Only use up to 40 to 60
milligrams in one hit.

958
00:55:43,700 --> 00:55:48,100
So you can see, to reach
1.52 milligrams per liter,

959
00:55:48,100 --> 00:55:50,500
You're talking about an
amount that would have

960
00:55:50,500 --> 00:55:55,500
Certainly have exceeded 200
milligrams that were injected

961
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:57,300
Into Kurt Cobain.

962
00:55:57,300 --> 00:56:00,300
Three times the amount that
would be considered lethal.

963
00:56:00,300 --> 00:56:03,200
I think very legitimate
questions have been raised

964
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:04,800
About the level of heroin.

965
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:08,500
We have not, in 18
years, found a single case

966
00:56:08,500 --> 00:56:12,400
Where somebody could
have the level of heroin

967
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:16,700
In their body that Kurt did
and still remain conscious.

968
00:56:16,700 --> 00:56:18,100
70
times the lethal dose

969
00:56:18,100 --> 00:56:20,600
For the average person,
triple the lethal dose

970
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:22,400
Even for the most
severe heroin addict.

971
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:23,900
It would have incapacitated him,

972
00:56:23,900 --> 00:56:25,500
He would have been unconscious.

973
00:56:25,500 --> 00:56:28,000
And then roll down
their sleeves, put
away their heroin kit,

974
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:29,900
Pick up the shotgun,
position it backwards

975
00:56:29,900 --> 00:56:31,700
And pull the trigger.

976
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:35,000
That deals with
coordinative functions.

977
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:38,400
How about the emotional
aspects of this?

978
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:42,200
Why would he then shoot
himself before the drug

979
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:45,200
Has had a chance to take effect?

980
00:56:45,300 --> 00:56:49,600
No study that I know
of has correlated use

981
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:52,700
Of heroin with suicide.

982
00:56:52,700 --> 00:56:56,600
I cannot think of a case
in which I have had someone

983
00:56:56,600 --> 00:57:00,500
Inject himself with a
large amount of heroin

984
00:57:00,500 --> 00:57:03,000
And then proceed
to kill himself.

985
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:06,000
It just doesn't make sense,
and it doesn't fit in

986
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:09,400
With these kinds of
situations involving heroin.

987
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,300
These are questions that
I think deserve answers,

988
00:57:12,300 --> 00:57:14,200
And in fact, require answers.

989
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:17,500
Many of the questions
could be answered

990
00:57:17,500 --> 00:57:21,800
If the medical examiner's
office would make public

991
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:23,800
The autopsy report.

992
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:26,900
I haven't been able to
see the toxicology report

993
00:57:26,900 --> 00:57:30,900
Or the autopsy report
because I haven't had access

994
00:57:30,900 --> 00:57:34,600
To review the actual
documentation from
the authorities.

995
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:37,700
The autopsy report
is public record.

996
00:57:37,700 --> 00:57:41,600
Apparently in this
jurisdiction, it is not.

997
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:44,600
In the case of Kurt Cobain,
they should've made them part

998
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:46,900
Of the release with the
Freedom of Information.

999
00:57:46,900 --> 00:57:48,100
Why they didn't
do that, I dunno.

1000
00:57:48,100 --> 00:57:50,200
In hindsight, maybe
they should've.

1001
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:52,600
We wouldn't be having
this discussion today.

1002
00:57:54,300 --> 00:57:58,200
There was a documentary
made about 1997, I believe,

1003
00:57:58,200 --> 00:57:59,800
Called "Kurt and Courtney."

1004
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:02,700
I cooperated with the
producer and director of that,

1005
00:58:02,700 --> 00:58:04,300
Nick Broomfield.

1006
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,800
Tom Grant's
assertion that 1.52 milligrams

1007
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:10,800
Of heroin per liter of blood
would have incapacitated

1008
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:14,300
Kurt were discounted
by Doctor Colin Brewer,

1009
00:58:14,300 --> 00:58:17,400
Formerly director at
Westminster Hospital.

1010
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:20,300
He gave us this color slide
of a patient balancing easily

1011
00:58:20,300 --> 00:58:22,800
On one leg, who had
taken the equivalent

1012
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,800
Of over twice the
amount taken by Kurt.

1013
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:28,900
The problem is that this
man had taken methadone,

1014
00:58:28,900 --> 00:58:32,800
Not heroin, and he had
swallowed the methadone.

1015
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:35,500
Methadone is a
pain medication.

1016
00:58:35,500 --> 00:58:38,000
It's also used to
treat heroin addiction,

1017
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:41,500
And because it's taken orally,
it 's absorbed much slower.

1018
00:58:41,500 --> 00:58:44,700
It takes time to get into
the blood, so it can take

1019
00:58:44,700 --> 00:58:47,200
Up to an hour or perhaps
two before it reaches

1020
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:50,000
Its highest concentrations.

1021
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:53,900
Heroin, on the other hand,
injected directly into the vein,

1022
00:58:53,900 --> 00:58:57,000
Is immediately available
to circulation,

1023
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:59,000
Immediately available
to the brain.

1024
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:04,000
Comparing oral methadone
to intravenous heroin.

1025
00:59:04,500 --> 00:59:07,800
What's the trade expression,
apples and oranges?

1026
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:09,600
It's much worse than
apples and oranges.

1027
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:12,500
It might be peaches and
asparagus that you're comparing.

1028
00:59:12,500 --> 00:59:15,400
I'm surely amazed that a
competent forensic scientist

1029
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:18,600
Would have made that
kind of comparison.

1030
00:59:24,300 --> 00:59:25,900
Seattle
police reports indicate

1031
00:59:25,900 --> 00:59:29,800
That Kurt Cobain was found
with a shotgun upside down,

1032
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:31,800
With his left hand
grasping the barrel

1033
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:35,000
In a vise-like grip, known
as a cadaveric spasm.

1034
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:38,800
Cadaveric spasm is a form
of muscular stiffening

1035
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:41,200
That only occurs in death.

1036
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:44,900
This occurrence is indispensable
to forensic investigation,

1037
00:59:44,900 --> 00:59:48,400
As it clearly shows the precise
orientation of the deceased

1038
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:50,900
At the exact moment of death;

1039
00:59:50,900 --> 00:59:52,900
In this case, Cobain's left hand

1040
00:59:52,900 --> 00:59:56,400
Gripping the barrel upside
down, as he was found.

1041
00:59:57,900 --> 01:00:00,600
This all seemed straightforward,
until you take into account

1042
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:04,000
The shotgun shell was found
to Cobain's left side,

1043
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:06,800
Opposite of where we'd
expect to find the shell:

1044
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:09,800
On Cobain's right side.

1045
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:13,200
The exit chamber is clearly
on Cobain's right side

1046
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:16,200
If it was fired upside
down, as it was found,

1047
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:19,900
And as the cadaveric
spasm confirms

1048
01:00:19,900 --> 01:00:22,600
Seattle P.D. explained
the illogical trajectory

1049
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:25,200
Of the shotgun shell by
concluding that the shotgun

1050
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:27,800
Was fired right
side up by Cobain,

1051
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:30,900
The shotgun flipped upside
down, expelling the shell

1052
01:00:30,900 --> 01:00:33,600
To his left, to finally
rest in the position

1053
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:35,300
That it was found.

1054
01:00:35,300 --> 01:00:38,200
This proposed scenario
is impossible, not only

1055
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:41,500
Because shotguns do not
flip upside down when fired;

1056
01:00:41,500 --> 01:00:43,900
It completely ignores
the cadaveric spasm

1057
01:00:43,900 --> 01:00:47,600
That locks the grip, dictating
the precise orientation

1058
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:49,700
Of the shotgun when fired.

1059
01:00:49,700 --> 01:00:53,200
In order for the scenario the
Seattle police stated occurred

1060
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:55,800
Cobain's wrist would
have to bend at an angle

1061
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:58,800
That is anatomically impossible.

1062
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:02,200
The cadaveric spasm shows
the precise orientation

1063
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:05,700
Of Cobain's hand at the
exact moment of death.

1064
01:01:05,700 --> 01:01:08,600
The only way that the shell
could end up in the opposite

1065
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:12,200
Side of the room is if,
when the shell was expelled,

1066
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:14,800
Hit an obstruction on
Cobain's right side

1067
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:18,600
And ricocheted to Cobain's left
side, to land on the jacket.

1068
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:22,800
The crime scene clearly shows
there was no such obstruction,

1069
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:26,200
Which then puts into question
if Cobain truly was alone

1070
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:29,500
In the Greenhouse when
the trigger was pulled.

1071
01:01:30,300 --> 01:01:32,800
Kurt
was not suicidal.

1072
01:01:33,300 --> 01:01:34,700
Have you been watchin' TV?

1073
01:01:34,700 --> 01:01:35,800
Readin' the paper?

1074
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:37,300
They're all saying
that he's been suicidal

1075
01:01:37,300 --> 01:01:39,200
For a long time, and Courtney
said that this overdose,

1076
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:40,600
The one that was
in Rome, she said

1077
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:42,000
That was a suicide attempt.

1078
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:43,300
That's not true.

1079
01:01:43,300 --> 01:01:45,300
It was Rosemary
Carroll's involvement

1080
01:01:45,300 --> 01:01:48,100
That really pushed me
forward, because if somebody

1081
01:01:48,100 --> 01:01:51,600
In Rosemary Carroll's
position was telling me

1082
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:54,000
The things she was telling me,

1083
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:57,900
Then I wasn't off
base, I wasn't crazy,

1084
01:01:57,900 --> 01:01:59,400
I wasn't a lunatic.

1085
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:01,000
She called me a
couple of weeks ago,

1086
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:03,400
Said Kurt was leaving her and
asked me to find the meanest,

1087
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:05,900
Most vicious divorce
lawyer I could find.

1088
01:02:05,900 --> 01:02:07,100
She even asked me
if there was any way

1089
01:02:07,100 --> 01:02:08,400
To avoid their prenup.

1090
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:09,900
And she said about
that same time,

1091
01:02:09,900 --> 01:02:12,600
Kurt had called her also
and asked her if she could

1092
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:15,200
Have Courtney's name
taken outta the will.

1093
01:02:31,100 --> 01:02:33,100
Does it seem strange
that Courtney didn't go

1094
01:02:33,100 --> 01:02:35,400
Up to Seattle, not even
once, to look for him?

1095
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:37,200
Absolutely.

1096
01:02:37,900 --> 01:02:39,900
When I offered to go up,
she said she couldn't go

1097
01:02:39,900 --> 01:02:43,000
With me because she had some
business down here in L.A.

1098
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:45,200
She didn't have
any business in L.A.

1099
01:02:45,700 --> 01:02:47,900
What I don't understand
is how you didn't see him

1100
01:02:47,900 --> 01:02:49,900
In the Greenhouse the
first night you were there.

1101
01:02:49,900 --> 01:02:51,400
Wait a minute, I didn't
even know the Greenhouse

1102
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:53,600
Existed until the day I
heard it on the radio.

1103
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:55,600
But Courtney told
Dylan to check it.

1104
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:57,400
When he called Courtney at
my house Wednesday night,

1105
01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:00,800
I heard her tell him to
check the Greenhouse.

1106
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:13,300
A lotta people mock him
for being at the house,

1107
01:03:13,300 --> 01:03:15,100
On the case, looking for Kurt.

1108
01:03:15,100 --> 01:03:18,300
Kurt was lying dead 20 feet
away and he never found him.

1109
01:03:18,300 --> 01:03:22,200
What does that say about
his abilities as a P.I?

1110
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:25,200
I went back on a rainy night.

1111
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:28,200
He claims it was dark and
just didn't know it was there.

1112
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:30,500
Nobody told him, Dylan
certainly didn't tell him.

1113
01:03:30,500 --> 01:03:32,800
Dylan must have known
that it was there.

1114
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:34,600
Is there anywhere else?

1115
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:35,900
No.

1116
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:38,900
So I went and tested
that, and sure enough,

1117
01:03:38,900 --> 01:03:40,800
You really couldn't see
it if you weren't looking

1118
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:42,000
For it specifically.

1119
01:03:59,100 --> 01:04:01,100
I asked Courtney to see the
note when I was in Seattle,

1120
01:04:01,100 --> 01:04:02,600
And she refused.

1121
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:04,600
Courtney apparently
had let Danny Goldberg,

1122
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:07,200
Her husband, see the
note, but she wouldn't let

1123
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:10,000
Rosemary see it, so
that mystified her too

1124
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:11,600
And made her more suspicious.

1125
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:14,600
And it made me more
suspicious, too.

1126
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:17,800
To hear Courtney's own lawyer,

1127
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:20,500
Kurt and Courtney's
entertainment lawyer,
Rosemary Carroll,

1128
01:04:21,100 --> 01:04:23,800
The godmother of Frances Bean,

1129
01:04:24,500 --> 01:04:28,100
Somebody that knew them
better than almost anybody,

1130
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:32,000
Telling Tom that

1131
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:35,700
They were in the
middle of a divorce,

1132
01:04:35,700 --> 01:04:38,300
That Kurt was drawing
up a new will,

1133
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:41,800
And most importantly,
I think the tape

1134
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:45,400
That really had me reeling,

1135
01:04:46,300 --> 01:04:51,200
Was hearing Rosemary Carroll
looking at the suicide note

1136
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:53,600
And immediately concluding
that it's a forgery.

1137
01:05:33,900 --> 01:05:36,300
I believe Courtney never
thought the public was gonna

1138
01:05:36,300 --> 01:05:38,200
Ever see that note.

1139
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:40,700
If I hadn't have tricked her
out of a copy of the note,

1140
01:05:40,700 --> 01:05:42,500
They wouldn't have seen it.

1141
01:05:43,300 --> 01:05:45,100
I heard you read the
note on TV the other day

1142
01:05:45,100 --> 01:05:47,700
And I'm just a little
confused about something.

1143
01:05:48,500 --> 01:05:52,000
It sounded like the note
said, "I'm lying on the bed."

1144
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:54,700
If Kurt was lying in the
bed when he wrote the note,

1145
01:05:54,700 --> 01:05:57,500
Why was the bed so neat when
I came here the other night?

1146
01:05:57,500 --> 01:05:59,800
It looked like nobody
had been on the bed.

1147
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:02,800
I was lying on the bed,
recording the message

1148
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:04,600
For Kurt's fans.

1149
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:06,400
Are you sure
that's what you said?

1150
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:09,900
Because I was under the
impression that Kurt was lying

1151
01:06:09,900 --> 01:06:11,000
On the bed.

1152
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:13,500
Look, I'll show you, okay?

1153
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:19,600
It's just a copy, but the
cops have the original.

1154
01:06:21,700 --> 01:06:26,000
I can't read this
without my glasses.

1155
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:27,700
I'm gonna take it down, make
a copy in the fax machine.

1156
01:06:27,700 --> 01:06:29,400
I'll read it later.

1157
01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:33,200
Yeah, sure.

1158
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:48,500
That I never
thought to look at at all,

1159
01:06:48,500 --> 01:06:51,400
Quite honestly,
until last night.

1160
01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:53,400
She left it after she
came over to my house,

1161
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:54,900
The night of the 6th.

1162
01:06:54,900 --> 01:06:57,600
Rosemary Carroll was working
with me behind the scenes,

1163
01:06:57,600 --> 01:07:00,500
Privately, giving
me information.

1164
01:07:00,500 --> 01:07:03,200
She did it out of
a good conscience.

1165
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:04,400
What do
you think that is?

1166
01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:45,400
conference on your phone,

1167
01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:47,500
And that way you could...

1168
01:08:47,500 --> 01:08:48,900
You've promised
me things before,

1169
01:08:48,900 --> 01:08:50,800
And it didn't come through.

1170
01:08:52,300 --> 01:08:54,600
Almost immediately
after Kurt Cobain's death

1171
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:57,400
Was announced in the
media, this phenomenon

1172
01:08:57,400 --> 01:09:00,200
Of copycat suicides began.

1173
01:09:00,200 --> 01:09:02,500
Kids started killing themselves:

1174
01:09:02,500 --> 01:09:05,300
Kurt Cobain fans, Nirvana fans.

1175
01:09:05,300 --> 01:09:07,800
This was happening
all around the world.

1176
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:12,200
Now I'm a dad
myself, and it's just,

1177
01:09:13,700 --> 01:09:14,900
Absolutely breaks my heart.

1178
01:09:14,900 --> 01:09:16,700
I talk to a lotta the families.

1179
01:09:17,400 --> 01:09:21,200
When you read their suicide
notes and read their journals,

1180
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:25,000
It really drove
home the importance

1181
01:09:26,100 --> 01:09:28,100
Of Kurt on this generation.

1182
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:32,600
The thought of losing
a child is just horrific.

1183
01:09:32,600 --> 01:09:35,900
I was relieved that I was
gonna go forward with this,

1184
01:09:35,900 --> 01:09:37,900
Because I thought,
"Maybe it'll help stop"

1185
01:09:37,900 --> 01:09:39,900
"Some of these
copycat suicides."

1186
01:10:04,500 --> 01:10:06,100
That would help
too, to be analyzed.

1187
01:10:06,100 --> 01:10:09,600
We could determine whether
Kurt wrote that whole thing.

1188
01:10:10,500 --> 01:10:13,100
The fact that the
handwriting looks,

1189
01:10:13,100 --> 01:10:16,300
To my untrained eye,
different at the bottom

1190
01:10:16,300 --> 01:10:18,900
Of that note than it
does during the body

1191
01:10:18,900 --> 01:10:21,300
It certainly does suggest
that putting that note

1192
01:10:21,300 --> 01:10:24,300
In the hands of a questioned
documents examiner,

1193
01:10:24,300 --> 01:10:28,500
Somebody who really understands
a lot more than we do

1194
01:10:28,500 --> 01:10:30,900
As cops, that would
be a good idea.

1195
01:10:30,900 --> 01:10:33,900
A forensic document
examiner examines documents

1196
01:10:33,900 --> 01:10:36,500
For the purposes
of authenticity.

1197
01:10:36,500 --> 01:10:39,400
I examined a handwriting
sample that was found

1198
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:43,300
In Courtney Love's backpack,
and it was a practice sheet

1199
01:10:43,300 --> 01:10:46,600
Of different letters,
the alphabet.

1200
01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:51,300
I examined that in comparison
to the suicide note.

1201
01:10:51,300 --> 01:10:53,900
What I did find interesting
about the practice sheet is

1202
01:10:53,900 --> 01:10:57,100
That it did have
letter combinations
and specific letters

1203
01:10:57,100 --> 01:11:02,100
That are found in the bottom
portion of the suicide note.

1204
01:11:02,100 --> 01:11:05,700
It is possible that somebody
else with some skill

1205
01:11:05,700 --> 01:11:09,200
Could indeed
imitate his writing,

1206
01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:11,700
Especially those last few lines.

1207
01:11:14,300 --> 01:11:17,300
One of the, perhaps
surprising, characteristics

1208
01:11:17,300 --> 01:11:21,800
Of this note is that the
largest section of the note,

1209
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:25,100
Or the initial part, talks so
much about his relationship

1210
01:11:25,100 --> 01:11:29,200
To music, and it's only the
very small part of the note,

1211
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:33,200
The last four lines, that
talks about his relationship

1212
01:11:33,200 --> 01:11:34,900
To his family.

1213
01:11:35,700 --> 01:11:38,500
But there's another
linguistically interesting thing

1214
01:11:38,500 --> 01:11:43,500
About the second or final
four lines of the note,

1215
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:49,200
And that is that that is what
most of us would consider

1216
01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:52,500
A stereotypical suicide note.

1217
01:11:52,900 --> 01:11:56,400
"I love you, someone will
be better off without me,"

1218
01:11:56,400 --> 01:11:58,200
"Keep moving forward."

1219
01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:02,900
Those are the kinds of
things we expect to find

1220
01:12:02,900 --> 01:12:07,300
In suicide notes,
or even in overkill,

1221
01:12:07,300 --> 01:12:11,700
To make it very stereotypical
so that people couldn't miss

1222
01:12:11,700 --> 01:12:12,800
What it was.

1223
01:12:19,300 --> 01:12:21,900
There are a lotta questions
I have for Dylan and Cali,

1224
01:12:21,900 --> 01:12:24,300
Especially Cali, who spent
more time here at the house

1225
01:12:24,300 --> 01:12:26,700
Than anybody last week.

1226
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:31,300
Cali is, he just
left for rehab.

1227
01:12:31,400 --> 01:12:34,200
He's in El Paso, or

1228
01:12:35,300 --> 01:12:37,500
Georgia, I think.

1229
01:12:39,300 --> 01:12:42,700
No no no, he's in
L.A. with friends.

1230
01:12:46,700 --> 01:12:48,500
I'll get Dylan over here.

1231
01:12:49,500 --> 01:12:52,600
After probably a half an
hour or so, I walked out

1232
01:12:52,600 --> 01:12:55,700
And I asked, "Is Dylan here yet?"

1233
01:12:55,700 --> 01:12:58,400
"I haven't seen him," and I
just assumed that somebody

1234
01:12:58,400 --> 01:13:00,500
Would let me know
when he showed up.

1235
01:13:00,500 --> 01:13:03,100
They said, "Yeah, he's
upstairs with Courtney,"

1236
01:13:03,100 --> 01:13:04,500
Which I thought was strange.

1237
01:13:04,500 --> 01:13:06,000
He was supposed to be
coming in the house to talk

1238
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:10,200
To me, not go upstairs and do
a pre-interview with Courtney.

1239
01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:12,300
So there's just been a
couple things that have been

1240
01:13:12,300 --> 01:13:14,900
Eating at me in the last few
weeks, and I wanted to sit here

1241
01:13:14,900 --> 01:13:17,000
And I wanted to talk
to you about them.

1242
01:13:19,900 --> 01:13:21,300
Did you just shoot up?

1243
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:23,200
Hm?

1244
01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:25,400
Did you just shoot up?

1245
01:13:27,300 --> 01:13:28,100
Yeah.

1246
01:13:28,100 --> 01:13:29,100
What?

1247
01:13:29,100 --> 01:13:30,600
Yes.

1248
01:13:30,600 --> 01:13:32,100
Why did you do that?

1249
01:13:32,100 --> 01:13:33,000
I told you I was coming
up here, I told you we had

1250
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:34,900
To have this conversation.

1251
01:13:35,700 --> 01:13:36,200
Dylan.

1252
01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:37,700
Hm?

1253
01:13:37,700 --> 01:13:39,900
I told you we had
to have this conversation.

1254
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:41,600
I'm ready.

1255
01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:42,800
You're ready?

1256
01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:44,000
- Mm hmm.
- You're not ready.

1257
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:45,400
I felt, "Why
would Courtney do this?"

1258
01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:48,100
She knew I had some serious
questions to ask him,

1259
01:13:48,100 --> 01:13:51,200
And she's sending him down
to me in a drugged state

1260
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:53,900
Of mind, where he
could hardly talk?

1261
01:13:53,900 --> 01:13:56,100
You check the front
door or the back?

1262
01:13:56,100 --> 01:13:57,900
Did you check the front
door or the back door?

1263
01:13:57,900 --> 01:13:58,600
Yeah.

1264
01:13:58,600 --> 01:13:59,700
Which door?

1265
01:13:59,700 --> 01:14:01,000
Both.

1266
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:02,000
Both doors. Did
you check the side door?

1267
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:03,100
No.

1268
01:14:03,100 --> 01:14:04,100
You didn't
go to the side door?

1269
01:14:04,100 --> 01:14:05,400
I don't remember.

1270
01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:06,300
You don't remember.

1271
01:14:06,300 --> 01:14:07,900
Did you go to the Greenhouse?

1272
01:14:07,900 --> 01:14:09,100
No.

1273
01:14:09,100 --> 01:14:10,500
You didn't go
to the Greenhouse?

1274
01:14:10,500 --> 01:14:13,500
Dylan, Dylan, I
wanna talk about...

1275
01:14:14,900 --> 01:14:17,100
I wanna talk about
the Greenhouse.

1276
01:14:19,700 --> 01:14:21,000
Dylan.

1277
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:23,000
Dylan was a heroin addict,

1278
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:25,700
And he needed a
source for heroin.

1279
01:14:25,700 --> 01:14:30,000
Once Kurt Cobain was dead, his
source became Courtney Love.

1280
01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:32,700
His loyalty became
Courtney Love.

1281
01:14:33,700 --> 01:14:35,000
He was very dependent on her.

1282
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:37,300
We've since learned
that she paid his rent

1283
01:14:37,300 --> 01:14:39,800
For many, many years,
supplied the money

1284
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:43,300
For his heroin, and almost
everybody around Kurt.

1285
01:14:43,300 --> 01:14:44,600
They were dependent on Courtney,

1286
01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:46,500
They were dependent
on Courtney's money.

1287
01:14:50,200 --> 01:14:53,500
It's a waste of
time, waste of time.

1288
01:15:01,900 --> 01:15:04,900
I felt it was my duty
to notify my client

1289
01:15:04,900 --> 01:15:07,300
That I was starting to
dig into some directions

1290
01:15:07,300 --> 01:15:10,300
That she may not want
me to be looking into,

1291
01:15:10,300 --> 01:15:13,000
But I was determined
to do it and I thought

1292
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:16,700
That she deserved to know
that I was going to do this.

1293
01:15:18,700 --> 01:15:21,300
She got the message,
I'm sure, from that.

1294
01:15:21,300 --> 01:15:23,700
I was insinuating
that I suspected her

1295
01:15:23,700 --> 01:15:25,600
Of being involved in this.

1296
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:28,400
A few days after
that letter was sent,

1297
01:15:28,400 --> 01:15:30,600
I got a phone call
from Courtney.

1298
01:15:31,400 --> 01:15:33,900
She wasn't livid, she
wasn't even angry.

1299
01:15:33,900 --> 01:15:36,200
She didn't mention
the letter, in fact.

1300
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:39,700
I basically said I'm going to
continue with my investigation

1301
01:15:39,700 --> 01:15:42,400
With or without
your cooperation.

1302
01:16:23,200 --> 01:16:24,400
Here's all you have
to do to bring this

1303
01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:26,500
To a quick end and solve
all of your problems.

1304
01:18:34,400 --> 01:18:36,600
Yes, hi, I'm looking for Kurt.

1305
01:18:38,200 --> 01:18:39,300
Hello?

1306
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:55,500
Hello?

1307
01:18:57,000 --> 01:18:58,600
Yes, hi. Someone's gonna get
really fucked up over there

1308
01:18:58,600 --> 01:19:00,200
If I don't talk to Kurt.

1309
01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:05,100
Hi, this is Julie Bernstein.

1310
01:19:05,100 --> 01:19:07,600
I really need to speak
to my client Kurt.

1311
01:19:07,600 --> 01:19:09,000
Get him on the fucking phone!

1312
01:19:23,400 --> 01:19:24,900
Yes, yeah, thank you.

1313
01:19:24,900 --> 01:19:26,500
No, no problem.

1314
01:19:27,300 --> 01:19:28,700
Yeah, Delta's fine.

1315
01:21:41,800 --> 01:21:43,700
with the 20th
anniversary approaching,

1316
01:21:43,700 --> 01:21:46,600
Detective Mike Ciesynski
re-examined the case files

1317
01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:49,700
Of an assignment early
in his fledgling career,

1318
01:21:49,700 --> 01:21:53,100
The investigation into
the death of Kurt Cobain.

1319
01:21:53,500 --> 01:21:55,500
You can never really
realize what type

1320
01:21:55,500 --> 01:21:57,600
Of conspiracy theorists
are gonna come out

1321
01:21:57,600 --> 01:21:59,100
Of the woodwork.

1322
01:21:59,100 --> 01:22:02,700
The amount of heroin that
he injected was 10 times

1323
01:22:02,700 --> 01:22:06,400
What, normally,
anybody would've taken,

1324
01:22:06,400 --> 01:22:08,200
Even a heavy heroin user.

1325
01:22:08,200 --> 01:22:12,700
I believe he gave himself a
fatal dose of black tar heroin.

1326
01:22:22,300 --> 01:22:24,700
Detective Mike
Ciesynski found four rolls

1327
01:22:24,700 --> 01:22:27,500
Of undeveloped
crime scene photos.

1328
01:22:27,500 --> 01:22:29,800
Two of those photos
were released,

1329
01:22:29,800 --> 01:22:32,100
Taken the day his
body was found.

1330
01:22:32,100 --> 01:22:35,300
In hindsight, I think I
would've developed the film.

1331
01:22:35,300 --> 01:22:36,700
Did you
find anything different

1332
01:22:36,700 --> 01:22:39,100
That made you believe
it's anything but suicide?

1333
01:22:39,100 --> 01:22:40,500
No, nothing.

1334
01:22:40,500 --> 01:22:42,900
What are people gonna
gain from seeing pictures

1335
01:22:42,900 --> 01:22:44,100
Of Kurt Cobain?

1336
01:22:44,100 --> 01:22:46,000
How is that gonna
benefit anybody?

1337
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:49,000
It wasn't gonna change
my decision that
this was a suicide,

1338
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:51,400
And actually I'm the one who
makes the decision finally,

1339
01:22:51,400 --> 01:22:52,800
Do we go forward or not.

1340
01:22:52,800 --> 01:22:56,200
There is never one item
that I said definitely

1341
01:22:56,200 --> 01:22:58,500
That this actually
was suicide, but um...

1342
01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:18,100
Any re-examination
should not even be actively

1343
01:23:18,100 --> 01:23:21,600
Participated in by the
Seattle Police Department.

1344
01:23:21,600 --> 01:23:25,300
To expect them to conduct
an objective, detached,

1345
01:23:25,300 --> 01:23:28,100
Unbiased investigation,
come back 20 years later

1346
01:23:28,100 --> 01:23:30,600
And say, "Hey man, we blew it?"

1347
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:34,600
It flies in the face
of common sense.

1348
01:23:34,600 --> 01:23:38,700
The Kurt Cobain death
demands a re-opening

1349
01:23:38,700 --> 01:23:43,200
By an objective set of experts,
and until that is done,

1350
01:23:43,200 --> 01:23:46,200
Then one cannot feel
comfortable in saying

1351
01:23:46,200 --> 01:23:51,100
That Kurt Cobain's death
was a clear-cut suicide.

1352
01:23:58,000 --> 01:24:00,100
For me, the most
compelling piece of evidence

1353
01:24:00,100 --> 01:24:03,800
That convinces me,
almost to a certainty,

1354
01:24:03,800 --> 01:24:06,900
That Kurt was murdered, was the
level of heroin in his body.

1355
01:24:08,400 --> 01:24:11,100
There's never been a
documented case in the history

1356
01:24:11,100 --> 01:24:14,100
Of law enforcement where
somebody could have

1357
01:24:14,100 --> 01:24:17,900
The level of heroin in
their body that Kurt did,

1358
01:24:17,900 --> 01:24:22,600
Still remain conscious,
and still led to a suicide.

1359
01:24:24,200 --> 01:24:27,100
We talked to an FBI
expert, and he said,

1360
01:24:27,100 --> 01:24:29,400
"If you wanna get
away with murder,"

1361
01:24:30,100 --> 01:24:31,900
"You kill a junkie."

1362
01:24:31,900 --> 01:24:36,900
It's very easy to
make a murder look

1363
01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:40,200
Look like an accidental
overdose or a suicide.

1364
01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:45,200
It's the perfect crime, and
it happens all the time.

1365
01:24:46,800 --> 01:24:51,500
We know that Kurt and Courtney
had a prenuptial agreement.

1366
01:24:52,300 --> 01:24:54,200
They were in the process
of getting a divorce.

1367
01:24:54,200 --> 01:24:56,800
This was confirmed,
they were divorcing.

1368
01:24:56,800 --> 01:24:58,600
He was leaving her.

1369
01:24:59,200 --> 01:25:01,200
If the divorce had gone through,

1370
01:25:01,900 --> 01:25:05,000
She would've received
a very small settlement

1371
01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:07,400
As a result of the
prenuptial agreement.

1372
01:25:07,900 --> 01:25:11,800
When he died, she
co-inherited an estate worth

1373
01:25:11,800 --> 01:25:15,000
Possibly more than a billion
dollars in future royalties.

1374
01:25:15,800 --> 01:25:18,200
Police immediately
look at motive.

1375
01:25:18,200 --> 01:25:19,700
Here's the motive.

1376
01:25:22,200 --> 01:25:25,400
No matter what anybody
believes, this happened

1377
01:25:25,400 --> 01:25:29,300
Far too quickly for the kinds
of things to be accomplished

1378
01:25:29,300 --> 01:25:34,000
That need to be done in this
kind of death investigation.

1379
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:38,400
We should, in fact, have
taken steps to study patterns

1380
01:25:38,400 --> 01:25:43,400
Involved in the behavior of key
individuals who had a motive

1381
01:25:44,300 --> 01:25:46,600
To see Kurt Cobain dead.

1382
01:25:47,500 --> 01:25:51,100
This would be in fact, a
classical example for how

1383
01:25:51,100 --> 01:25:53,800
An investigation
should not be done.

1384
01:25:53,800 --> 01:25:57,700
If, in fact, Kurt Cobain
was murdered, as opposed

1385
01:25:57,700 --> 01:26:01,700
To having committed
suicide, and it was possible

1386
01:26:01,700 --> 01:26:05,100
To learn that, shame on
us for not doing that.

1387
01:26:05,100 --> 01:26:07,900
That was, in fact,
our responsibility.

1388
01:26:07,900 --> 01:26:11,000
Should the case be re-opened?

1389
01:26:11,000 --> 01:26:13,800
My answer is unequivocally,
unhesitatingly,

1390
01:26:13,800 --> 01:26:16,400
"Yes, the case
should be re-opened."

1391
01:26:16,400 --> 01:26:18,200
It's about right and wrong.

1392
01:26:18,200 --> 01:26:22,400
It's about honor,
it's about ethics.

1393
01:26:22,400 --> 01:26:24,200
If we didn't get it
right the first time,

1394
01:26:24,200 --> 01:26:27,000
We damn well better get
it right the second time.

1395
01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:29,000
And I would tell you right
now that if I were the

1396
01:26:28,900 --> 01:26:32,300
Chief today, I would
re-open this investigation.